The Big Problem with Combat -- Unit collision and mass [FIX / SUGGESTION]

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Drizzti

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I really hope for some changes here, I rather have the battle mechanics well done and get some epic battles where you can actually use tactics, than hours worth of content.
Both would be epic, but just a fix for what’s mentioned in this thread and this game is going to the top
 

vemerce

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M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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This problem really shines when you use a pike or piercing polearm and attempt to charge at a full line of enemies and stab them. There can be a bunch of enemies in front of you and 9/10 you'll miss completely or barely scratch one.

Trying to lance someone on the ground feels like you're trying to shoot for an eight ball into the corner pocket and you have to be deadly accurate while charging at the shot at 50 miles per hour.

I miss constantly when I try that method of attack, and there are times when I'm stationary swinging and I feel like I should be hitting the enemy (because my weapon flies right at them and they're right next to my horse) but I seem to miss completely. Could be because the hit boxes on enemies are too small at the moment...

Also, when you charge through a pack of enemies on your horse, they just sort of step to the side a little bit and make room for you. I'd expect people to be falling down.
 

zMasterofPie

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WBWF&SNWVC
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+1. I wonder if maybe there should be more pushing and shoving actions, maybe even making it so formations could bowl each other over?

When I was doing sieges in Warband I always thought about how if it were real life, the two clashing formations on the wall would push each other over and off of the wall, like the Greeks did to the Persians at Thermopylae. (except they pushed them off a cliff into the sea)

And speaking of Thermopylae it would be cool for there to be battle maps akin to that, where if you are fighting near/on mountains, you might have to fight in a mountain pass or near a ravine where men could fall to their deaths.

The battle maps are much better than warband, but they are very samey, all of them are fields with a river. We need more forests and mountains and cliffs.
 

vemerce

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M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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The battle maps are much better than warband, but they are very samey, all of them are fields with a river. We need more forests and mountains and cliffs.
In my experience, the maps are directly based on the terrain you're fighting on. If you're in territory with fields and rivers a lot, that's what you get. Have battles near mountains, forests, deserts, etc., and that's what you get instead. The only maps that don't seem like they have much variety at all are the bandit/raider hideout ones.

But I have fought some battles where NPC's get pushed off the edges of castles and siege towers, but... It's usually because someone bashed or kicked them off. Usually me. :grin:
 

zMasterofPie

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WBWF&SNWVC
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In my experience, the maps are directly based on the terrain you're fighting on. If you're in territory with fields and rivers a lot, that's what you get. Have battles near mountains, forests, deserts, etc., and that's what you get instead. The only maps that don't seem like they have much variety at all are the bandit/raider hideout ones.

But I have fought some battles where NPC's get pushed off the edges of castles and siege towers, but... It's usually because someone bashed or kicked them off. Usually me. :grin:
Idk man, even when I chase people into mountains to trap them, I get a standard field map. The closest thing to "mountains" ive gotten is a field with mountains in the distance. I want to actually fight on a mountain, in a pass or something like that.
 

jipped

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Isn't there a mod that kind of fixes this? Or am I mistaken? Thought I saw someone mention this.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
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As in The tactical way: beyond the melee cluster and several other threads, we have long commented on the problem of blob cluster of bodies when a large group of agents collides.

In numerous comments and different threads created on purpose like Agent overlap issue in flock movement, I have suggested an increase in the individual capsule collider of each agent, so that the bodies do not somehow overlap with each other.

Currently in the native we find a value of capsule= 0.37. I propose to increase it to 0.50. I have been doing humble tests and from the shortest weapons like maces to the longest ones long swords/spears, passing through the action of projectiles and other elements; that value is consistent and shows all the damages in a normal way.
There is a significant difference between a "living space" of 0.37 and 0.50* (values above that imply eventual inconsistencies); here is a sample:


(*) Edit: Between 0.46 and 0.5 I have noticed problems of interaction between the capsule and settlement stairs (in Aserai settlements at 0.5 they ascend smoothly). With a value of 0.45 there is no such problem.

In testing all this I have come across a problem, which has always been there for us players (since we have had access to the game). However, this problem does not seem to appear in the 2016 videos. I mean, when the bodies of the agents collide with each other in close quarters; there is a shaking of the agents causing an extremely annoying jittering in the player's camera. Perhaps a problem with kinematic physics? Here is a sample:

2016 vs 0.37 vs 0.5

Video of the 2016 siege (defence) - roomy capsules and no jitteringbody_capsule radius="0.37body_capsule radius="0.50
Scroll right to see the 3th clip

@Daegoth @NIN3 As soon as you have a moment, please come and comment and shed light on this matter.
 
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Count Talbar

Sergeant at Arms
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In testing all this I have come across a problem, which has always been there for us players (since we have had access to the game). However, this problem does not seem to appear in the 2016 videos. I mean, when the bodies of the agents collide with each other in close quarters; there is a shaking of the agents causing an extremely annoying jittering in the player's camera. Perhaps a problem with kinematic physics?
In one of the old 2016 gameplays, Lust briefly talks about the engine being able to handle new physics interactions between infantry vs cavalry and heavy infantry vs lighter infantry. You can hear what he said at 25:27 - 25:55 in the video.


From what I gather, it seems the shaking and jittering might be the result of an intended pushing mechanic. If that's the case, I don't think it really works for a Mount and Blade game, or at least not in the way its implemented. I think it'd be different if pushing were only possible while walking and the reaction to being pushed was well animated instead of just sliding across the ground. It also really messes up cavalry vs infantry combat when cavalry can just run through 5+ ranks of infantry while sliding everyone out of place, making everything feel weightless.

P.S. Anyone feel like the current face creation is a little too restrictive compared to the 2016 version at the start of the vid?
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
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In one of the old 2016 gameplays, Lust briefly talks about the engine being able to handle new physics interactions between infantry vs cavalry and heavy infantry vs lighter infantry. You can hear what he said at 25:27 - 25:55 in the video.


From what I gather, it seems the shaking and jittering might be the result of an intended pushing mechanic. If that's the case, I don't think it really works for a Mount and Blade game, or at least not in the way its implemented. I think it'd be different if pushing were only possible while walking and the reaction to being pushed was well animated instead of just sliding across the ground. It also really messes up cavalry vs infantry combat when cavalry can just run through 5+ ranks of infantry while sliding everyone out of place, making everything feel weightless.

P.S. Anyone feel like the current face creation is a little too restrictive compared to the 2016 version at the start of the vid?
I totally agree.

If you look at it, each agent is like a radio-controlled car with the full throttle and rolling on a soap surface. That jittering is not normal and the fact is that it happens in closed or open environments alike; all with high density of agents.

I don't know how to program this sort of mechanics into AI (not my field) but I do know how I would like to see that applied.
In the current native we see a 0.37 capsulle collider which enables you to move your avatar through a crowd of agents by displacing them in your path. Warband in this aspect, had a bigger capsule which generated situations of immobility in environments of great density of agents. This in my opinion should be brought to Bannerlord. Many will understand the reference; GoT's "battle of the bastards" or whoever has been in a music concert surrounded by people. That's the idea.

Each agent maintains a slight tilting movement (idle) and waits its turn to " fill in" the free zone. In terms of density I would aim more for this type of effect.

As for the character editor, although I don't understand that weight and build modifiers are still hidden nowadays, I think it has been significantly improved. There is a mod that enables all these modifiers and the results are very satisfactory. It lacks a polish obviously, but I think it is moving from an editor with cartoon results to one with realistic possibilities.

 
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Count Talbar

Sergeant at Arms
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I fiddled with the collision size several patches ago and while I'm not entirely sure, it seemed like there is a discrepancy between allied and enemy collision sizes. When you increase the collision size, your allies are no longer packed like sardines but it also feels like there's a strange bubble that prevents you from getting too close to an enemy agent. I don't know if it might have to do with the pushing mechanics or if agents just have a proportionally larger collision with enemies compared to allies. Also, thanks for the heads up about the mod.