The Big Problem with Combat -- Unit collision and mass

[Fikiy]

This is I think the biggest problem with the game right now. It's ridiculous how they all stack on top of each other, but I don't think collision is the only problem. The way everyone slides around like they are floating, and start vibrating as they all try to push each other out of the way. It doesn't just look broken visually, it changes the entire feel of combat. That gamescom footage looks basically how warband was, so much better. It's like a completely different game. Actually it looks great I want to play that game.

Same thing happened to starcraft 2 compared to the original, they "improved" the pathing/collision so everything flows like water, but it completely changed the gameplay for the worse. The result was the same too, especially big battles were over really fast and you didn't have much control over them. You just send your blob and hope for the best.

Here we have 250v250 battle, over in seconds. The actual combat only takes about 45 seconds.

over-in-seconds

Watch "over-in-seconds" on Streamable.

streamable.com

Yeah I tried the mod that is out in nexus right now that increases the colliders and it does something but it is still not enough. There are more problems besides the colliders that need to be fixed. They had it working well back in 2016, Taleworlds should know what they have changed to make this absolute mess. Hopefully they already have this in mind and gets fixed soon.

 

[bantad87]

Yeah collision would go a long way to making the battles more tactical. I can't even get a proper hammer & anvil infantry/cav crush because the infantry battle is over in 15-45 seconds. =/

 

[Ariakan]

Alot of great replies in here. I really hope Taleworld takes notice and corrects the pathing/collision issue.
I agree totally with how every single BIG battle is over en mere minutes. I dont remember that that at all, from my close to 1000 hours in Warband.

 

[Fikiy]

I reposted this in the suggestion thread guys. Give it some love so Taleworld can see it and work on it as soon or later!

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/the-big-problem-with-combat-unit-collision-and-mass-fix-suggestion.410721/

 

[el_miguel42]

+1 100% this. There was something "off" about combat and it was all happening far too quickly, but because up till now I had mostly been doing fairly minor skirmishes I hadnt seen it much. Then yesterday doing some large battles it was a WTF moment, where my 300 vs 400 man battle lasted a shorter period of time than a 40 vs 40 battle in Prophesy of Pendor. I really hope that this is fixed because its the biggest deal breaker for me.

 

[Neodymus]

Could use some tuning, but I dunno. That second video, the formation holds for quite a while. It isn't until guys get around the sides that it starts to cave in. That's the one thing I don't like about the shield wall, but at the same time, the shield wall is meant to hold ground and stall the enemy, so it kind of makes sense that the AI ignores its flanks. To a degree.

I do feel like they could make it better than it is, though. Particularly on the cavalry front. If loosely formed infantry take a full cavalry charge, I want guys getting bowled over left and right.



They can. For glory.

I love how ~15 seconds before the timestamp there are 4 cavs missing the guy with their lances, was pretty funny seeing them riding by.

 

[Pejot]

Not only collision is problem but AI behavior and distance needed for attacks to hit.
AI tends to try to cut distance as much as possible leading to one fighter almost hugging another (they don't care what weapon they use they always try to hug You) while the distance needed for swing to take affect is quete big. For example You can't hit a target that's literally touching You but it works well when the target is one "unit" away from You.

So if they want to keep small distance they should change the range needed to land a hit or change the collision box plus AI behaviour.

 

[Marcquez]

its a hard thing to balance - I would love large battles to take time so I can play with tactics and all that but then there is so much fighting in this game, if every battle took ages it would get really old really fast : /

Then you autoresolve some.
Would love to be in fights longer

 

[Ding]

Honestly at this point I cant see the games basic mechanics improving. Even the graphics I feel are as good as were going to get. We unfortunately need to put all our faith into mods now.

 

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

I love how ~15 seconds before the timestamp there are 4 cavs missing the guy with their lances, was pretty funny seeing them riding by.

Hey, my father-in-law's been lancing all his life and he misses the mark every so often at a full gallop. I fully expect to see my men miss. Hitting a target with the point of a spear at 38 MPH isn't a simple thing.

 

[Pejot]

Hey, my father-in-law's been lancing all his life and he misses the mark every so often at a full gallop. I fully expect to see my men miss. Hitting a target with the point of a spear at 38 MPH isn't a simple thing.

That's why in battle they usually rode in pack with lances crouched. Some of them landed hits some not (some died in the attempt). The problem is that AI is not capable of targeting whole group instead of singe units.

 

[Yormund]

Anybody tried the mods on nexus? I am willing to try the Armour Does Something combined with the collision mod once back home from work.

 

[Moonweb]

My big problem with combat is the attack/blocking direction don't work right.

Actually that's an excellent point. I'm sure in WB you could aim a block after you pressed the button to block. Right now you have to aim first which means turning your character.

 

[Moonweb]

Not only collision is problem but AI behavior and distance needed for attacks to hit.
AI tends to try to cut distance as much as possible leading to one fighter almost hugging another (they don't care what weapon they use they always try to hug You) while the distance needed for swing to take affect is quete big. For example You can't hit a target that's literally touching You but it works well when the target is one "unit" away from You.

So if they want to keep small distance they should change the range needed to land a hit or change the collision box plus AI behaviour.

When galloping with a lance, you must start the strike when you are still out of range - AI units need to also do this. This also means that cavalry should attempt to move away and come back for each attack rather than 'hugging' their target. Point blank attacks with lances are largely ineffectual because they don't pierce at low speed.

 

[duchuy613]

Anybody tried the mods on nexus? I am willing to try the Armour Does Something combined with the collision mod once back home from work.

The collision mod from Nexus is kinda buggy. It's like there's a huge invisible wall around characters. When the NPC walks backward, there's a distance of about a tree stump in between you and them. So when fighting in tournament, I couldn't get close to enough to use shield bash.

 

[Pejot]

I think melee on AI side lacks some calculation taking weapon length into account when choosing the distance they should keep while fighting. For example spearmen closing distance is pointless when the distance is in his favour.

This works somehow in 1v1 but in battles they tend to become a stupid mob that keeps close to each other.

 

[Yormund]

The collision mod from Nexus is kinda buggy. It's like there's a huge invisible wall around characters. When the NPC walks backward, there's a distance of about a tree stump in between you and them. So when fighting in tournament, I couldn't get close to enough to use shield bash.

Thanks for your reply. Is it with the latest version of the mod? This was posted as fixed with the current version by the mod developer, hence me asking.

 

[Ninja89]

Wow that 2016 gameplay looks incredible, I had forgotten completely! It does seem theres a lot of correlation with Rome Total War 2 first gameplay and the actual result at release, and this 2016 footage and EA release... Even the issue of collision is the same

Although I do love this game, and I was utterly dissappointed in RTW2

Same. There is a great 2 hour review or RTW2 that trashes it burt hits the points on exactly what is wrong with it. Its also very funny. You should watch it its called why Rome 2 failed. I really hope this game doesnt go the same way.

 

[darksoulshin]

completely agree +1

 

[duchuy613]

Thanks for your reply. Is it with the latest version of the mod? This was posted as fixed with the current version by the mod developer, hence me asking.

Just tried it and it is somewhat fixed, much better than before but there's still some distance between characters that makes it harder to use shield bash. This is the closest you can get to the NPC.