Please give shields to every faction's tier 2 infantry

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I gave the tier 2 Vlandians (footman and levy crossbow) a Makeshift Wooden Shield. It's ugly and it's crude and it seems to fit in perfectly at low tier. They have a shield now, just not a great one.
 
seem there is something people forget to consider here: if everyone has a good shield, you can you user ealier missile unit then?

If you complain about some T2 unit has trouble surviving long enough to level up because lacking a shield, giving everyone a shield basically just transfer that problem to archers. Even tier 3 archers will have a hard time to break the most basic shield before being put into melee range unless they're vastly outnumber the shield troop.

Think about this: a group of 10 spear men with shield can hold their own against almost anything. But a group of 10 archers are useless against almost everything. Archers need to reach a certain critical mass before they can be effective, making even the lower tier infantry to ward against arrow just gonna make the lower tier archer struggle more.
 
seem there is something people forget to consider here: if everyone has a good shield, you can you user ealier missile unit then?

If you complain about some T2 unit has trouble surviving long enough to level up because lacking a shield, giving everyone a shield basically just transfer that problem to archers. Even tier 3 archers will have a hard time to break the most basic shield before being put into melee range unless they're vastly outnumber the shield troop.

Think about this: a group of 10 spear men with shield can hold their own against almost anything. But a group of 10 archers are useless against almost everything. Archers need to reach a certain critical mass before they can be effective, making even the lower tier infantry to ward against arrow just gonna make the lower tier archer struggle more.

Half of the factions have tier 2 shielded infantry already yet people aren't complaining that archers are too weak. Actually its the opposite; the general consensus is that archers are too strong. Warband also had T2 infantry with shields and no problems with archery being underpowered.

I want to clarify that I don't think tier 2 infantry should get the best shields in the game. I suggested small and simple wooden shields, such as a horseman's kite shield, southern round shield, and heater shield.

Archers will still be very useful. They're a necessity for sieges, skirmish phases, and they're one of the safest choices to deal damage if positioned correctly. It's safe to say that archery will still have a major role in battles, as your army will be completely vulnerable without them to things like horse archers, archers, skirmishers, heavy shock troops, recruit spam, etc.
 
The close-in time for the aiming reticle needs to be slowed substantially -- it should proabably be at least 3x longer than it currently is.
Dunno if you've ever tried archery, especially with recurve bows, but the longer you hold a drawn arrow, the *less* accurate you are. Even with compound there is only so long before muscle fatigue will cause your arm to sway. The issue I see with archers isn't their accuracy but rather their ammo. Archers may have carried a selection of arrows into battle but the type of arrow they loosed would have a big impact on the target they might hit. A broad-head or barbed arrow would be devastating to unarmoured men or horses, yet glance off scale, chain, banded plate, and stand a chance of being stopped by ring armour. A bodkin headed arrow would be capable of possibly penetrating most armour of the period but even against unarmoured target it could potentially deal less overall damage. An arrow to a vital area will kill/disable someone regardless of the tip, as simply moving with an arrow stuck in you would be "churning" your innards. (kind of hard to "walk it off") But the broad-heads would induce a lot more bleeding and barbed heads cannot simply be pulled out. (unless you were wearing silk under your armour)

So IMO, a game like Bannerlord, an army should be required to choose the composition of their archer arrows. If you're facing or fielding a lot of heavily armoured units, Bodkins would be practical. If you're facing a lot of lightly armoured men or horses, then broad heads. A balanced army would greatly limit the effectiveness of archers because bodkins might work against armour, but not be as devastating to lighter units, and broad heads would chew through lighter units and unarmoured horses, but be no threat to heavier armoured troops. Armies could carry a mix of archer units and be forced to try and field the right men at the right time.

Many of the videos with horse archers look devastating when fought in a manner that plays to the HA strength. Wide open spaces where the HA can circle unopposed. Even a circle formation with shields doesn't stand up against that since at range, arrows are flying into the backs of the circle from the opposite side. (Arguably I would have figured armies facing such harassment would adapt to have men on the inner edge of formations turtle their shields to cover the backs of their line) Bringing terrain and a mixture of units into the battle can greatly change the tide, plus you have to account for a like-for-like in terms of cost and accessibility. Simply breaking the "ring" with cavalry, infantry, and/or terrain is enough to disrupt the HAs so that your own archers can lay into them.

Still, expecting a force of infantry to advance on archers or face horse archers without shields is not an issue of balance, it is a failure in strategy and tactics. There are many ways to deal with archers because the main drawback of archers is a limited ammo supply.

1. meat shield - Attacking with an advance force of cheap, disposable units. Every arrow spent against these units is one your main force doesn't get hit with.
2. Advancing behind shielded units - Just because you use an army with the 2-handers doesn't mean you cannot recruit troops that carry shields. Like the meat shield these can advance in shield wall to harmlessly absorb arrows while followed by 2-hander berserker-style troops.
3. Cavalry - Cavalry units can be very hard for archers to hit and these can flank/charge archer-heavy groups to disrupt them heavily while your main force advances.
4. Terrain/weather - If you have control to set the place and time of battle, fighting at night in hilly or wooded terrain will give you a significant advantage over archer-heavy forces. Sometimes the best approach to an enemy position isn't a straight line. If you can advance from another direction that offers cover from arrows to cut down the distance, even better.
5. Archers - skirmishing "cheaper" archers in advance of your forces acts like a meat shield that in turn inflicts losses on your opponents.

Archers historically were scorned by knights and men at arms as the thought of loosing arrows into a field of battle was not honorable combat. Archers were often killed rather than ransomed, or had their hands mutilated before being released if captured. Still, they are there, so adapt. :smile:
Complaining that armies focused on 2-handers have no counter to archers is akin to complaining that rock-paper-scissors isn't fair because you can't win by just playing rock every time.
 
So you want an easy early game and easy late game? Sounds pretty boring

Thing is, anyone without a shield is archery fodder when realistically, even troops that use 2handers should be smart enough to contribute to a shield wall rather than stand around like idiots when no enemies are in range. A great AI design decision (that would totally fix Sturgian Shock Troops to play smarter) is have all troops defensively have and use their shield when told to Shield Wall and only brandish their weapon when enemies are actually in melee range (not 30 yards away, Ahem... Sturgian Shock Troops)

You can buff armor all you want but shields basically offer dmg immunity until they break/are unequipped. Which is why always upgrading your units to almost anything with a shield (AKA Not Sturgian Shock Troops) is overpowered currently.
 
Thing is, anyone without a shield is archery fodder when realistically, even troops that use 2handers should be smart enough to contribute to a shield wall rather than stand around like idiots when no enemies are in range. A great AI design decision (that would totally fix Sturgian Shock Troops to play smarter) is have all troops defensively have and use their shield when told to Shield Wall and only brandish their weapon when enemies are actually in melee range (not 30 yards away, Ahem... Sturgian Shock Troops)

You can buff armor all you want but shields basically offer dmg immunity until they break/are unequipped. Which is why always upgrading your units to almost anything with a shield (AKA Not Sturgian Shock Troops) is overpowered currently.
Yes but tier 1 and arguably tier 2 is cannon fodder who dont excell at anything, giving them shields isnt going to save them from being destroyed by archers.

What would save them, and many more high tier troops without shields, is when you use the "shield wall" formation the troops with shields get in front, while the others get behind them which is not only realistic, but common sense xD
 
Yes but tier 1 and arguably tier 2 is cannon fodder who dont excell at anything, giving them shields isnt going to save them from being destroyed by archers.

In saying that, you made an argument that they should have shields anyways. A basic shield should be afforded to the all "infantry" ranks.
 
Yes but tier 1 and arguably tier 2 is cannon fodder who dont excell at anything, giving them shields isnt going to save them from being destroyed by archers.

What would save them, and many more high tier troops without shields, is when you use the "shield wall" formation the troops with shields get in front, while the others get behind them which is not only realistic, but common sense xD

The problem is this 'cannon fodder' doesn't even do well at that, as they get killed extremely easily without shields and then your army morale breaks due to losses. If their true role was to be a meatshield, then some cheap shields would serve their role better. They would absorb some arrows for the more elite troops and then hold a bit in melee. I'm talking about tier 2 to clarify, I think tier 1 recruits are fine without shields.

I wish the shield wall formation would prioritize shields in the front, but I find that arrows can still be shot over the front row rather easily and destroy the troops behind them anyways.
 
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My understanding is that what we think of as "low-tier" armor is surprisingly strong IRL, and that arrows and bolts in this game are significantly more penetrant than they were IRL (among other things, there is no dropoff for distance). This blog post by a military historian discusses the issue a lot, especially dealing with how video games make us misunderstand archery historically : https://acoup.blog/2019/07/04/collections-archery-distance-and-kiting/
Even a simple gambeson was very effective against arrows loosed from bows more powerful than you'd see in Bannerlord.



Bannerlord suffers greatly from "Hollywood Armor." It comes in three levels of protection. Paper, Styrofoam, and Plastic. Stuff would be better used for making dispoable drink cups than armor.
 
Bannerlord suffers greatly from "Hollywood Armor." It comes in three levels of protection. Paper, Styrofoam, and Plastic. Stuff would be better used for making dispoable drink cups than armor.
Interesting video for sure. I used to enjoy the health/damage systrm used in Darklands way back. Health damage from cuts etc. became much rarer as your armour increased. Soldiers were more commonly downed by fatigue where the armour itself tired them along with getting knocked about. As in wars of the period, hammers and maces were used over swords to beat down armored foes. Men would carry narrow daggers that could slip between plates/openings to kill or force knights to yield and be captured. Armor in Bannerlord does seem underrated. It might help battles last more than a couple of minutes as well, along with stamina on troops.
 
Yes but sometimes our soldiers get shot in the face and runs on fighting, I think bows and arrows need fine tuning but its not hollywood bad.

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I think battles would be better if the bow arrow and javelins, where tuned down a bit and if they should buff armor or not im not sure. But also the AI, friend and foe alike, being a little bit more careful when fighting instead of the all out Banzai, would make battles a bit more fun.

It might be that all soldiers, even peasants somehow have to high weapon skill and movement speed that makes them so deadly? I cant fight 3 militia guys on the walls during a siege no matter my armor. They just beat on my shield like crazy.
 
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I'm too lazy to look back through this thread but whoever posted this is SPOT ON.

As for....
I'm not sure what you're trying to say? So in game bow and arrows should be buffed or nerfed to reflect real life?

The proper response would be to tweak the arrow mechanics so armor responds differently at angles and range.

But for all I know they've already done that math (I doubt). But then again from what I've seen most archery in M&B takes place within 20-50m which would be brutally deadly and wreck padded gambesons IRL so yeah archers being OP = fairly accurate.

What is NOT accurate is the idea that anyone would be going to war with half-naked troops armed with farm implements OR Tier 2 units without shields. Ever. A "slab of wood with a strap" has been bare minimum protection from antiquity right up to the invention of guns.

That is completely ahistorical and unrealisic and, frankly, insane. Whoever thought it up on the dev team was huffing glue.
 
I cant fight 3 militia guys on the walls during a siege no matter my armor.
Do you think you would stand that much of a chance outnumbered IRL? Hollywood loves the heroes carving their way through masses of regulars like Geralt of Rivia. The reality though would be to use a shield to push men back to give your forces a foothold and your men would be slamming and stabbing away at anything tender. As would the enemy. Brutal stuff and fairly interestingly done in Bannerlord.
 
So I don’t think making every faction aesthetic different carbon copies of each other is the way to go

I just dont

There is more to the game then just a shield wall. Vlandia gets early access to Range and it’s Special tier is 100% mounted. Aserai however gets late access to true range (Tier 4) and Battanians gets late access to Cav and limited access to true range. Those other bullets points combine with Tier 3 shield wall being the start and cause the greater issues with the rosters.

So again, carbon copy troop trees aren’t a very immersive, deep game play answer. Ensuring there is upside in place of the short comings is
 
There is more to the game then just a shield wall.
But all the cultures, to their real life historical counterparts, all had armies that consisted of a base line of infantry. On line, in a shield wall formation, some cultures making use of the wall better than others. (Except the khuzaits, nomadic horse tribe peoples)
 
Do you think you would stand that much of a chance outnumbered IRL? Hollywood loves the heroes carving their way through masses of regulars like Geralt of Rivia. The reality though would be to use a shield to push men back to give your forces a foothold and your men would be slamming and stabbing away at anything tender. As would the enemy. Brutal stuff and fairly interestingly done in Bannerlord.
Yes I do think I would stand a chance IRL or not, especially if I have stats like 150+ in weapon and 50+ armor and tier 6 weapon and shield and the guys im fighting have tier 2 weapons and anywhere from 5 skill points in weapons to 50 and armor of 10+ :smile: Come on its a game, I AM THE HERO, and on very easy I should not be fighting for dear life. Its ok on realistic.
 
So I don’t think making every faction aesthetic different carbon copies of each other is the way to go

I just dont

There is more to the game then just a shield wall. Vlandia gets early access to Range and it’s Special tier is 100% mounted. Aserai however gets late access to true range (Tier 4) and Battanians gets late access to Cav and limited access to true range. Those other bullets points combine with Tier 3 shield wall being the start and cause the greater issues with the rosters.

So again, carbon copy troop trees aren’t a very immersive, deep game play answer. Ensuring there is upside in place of the short comings is

Having tier 2 shielded infantry and the things you described in the third paragraph are not mutually exclusive. Factions will still have their strengths and weaknesses. Aserai will still have amazing cavalry, battania will still have the best quality archers, etc. I also don't really understand your examples. Both Vlandia (shieldless T2) and Empire (T2 with shields) have 100% mounted special troops and tier 2 archers. And wouldn't having T2 shields be advantageous for Aserai and Battania who rely on late tier troops for their cavalry and archers?

Warband had shields for every T2 infantry unit yet their factions' strengths and weaknesses were even more pronounced than in Bannerlord. I don't think Tier 2 shielded infantry is the end of faction diversity and aesthetic. If anything, it can be the beginning of it. More shields stop the current overpowered archer spam and open more options, such as the usage of shock troops that seem promising but don't cut it on the battlefield currently.
 
Warband had shields for every T2 infantry unit yet their factions' strengths and weaknesses were even more pronounced than in Bannerlord. I don't think Tier 2 shielded infantry is the end of faction diversity and aesthetic. If anything, it can be the beginning of it. More shields stop the current overpowered archer spam and open more options, such as the usage of shock troops that seem promising but don't cut it on the battlefield currently.
Correct!

Pretty much every primitive-ancient-medieval IRL army ever had shields. Everyone from Caesar's illiterate spear-chucking German barbarians vs elite spear-chucking Roman legionaries, Mad libs it for Chinese/Nordic/Scottish/African/Greek/Persian whatever. Shields are 100% a must for front-line infantry before the advent of guns. And spears are REALLY close behind them.

This isn't a nerf to "variety" this is a buff to "logic". Throughout history, shield-and-spear has been the go-to weapon combo for the majority of soldiers in almost every culture and for extremely good reason - it's effective and cheap.

There is no scenario where T2 infantry for any culture isn't spear-and-sheild except maybe Khuzait - and not really even them because historically the Mongols actually incorporated spear infantry tactics over time because they were so obviously effective.
 
The weakest faction so far is Sturgian, even with e1.3.0's fix on their equipment and state. And they have shield for their tier2 infantry. The balancing problem the game as is that there is no extra attrition in snow area, the speed penalty is not yet notable and the horses don't consume grain. No matter how shielded this faction is, since the AI don't understand how to use a shield wall yet and don't have a tactic AI that can make a good use of heavy skirmisher cav, this faction will keep been slaughtered.
Asarais have a similar condition compares to the Sturgians, their territory is linal that makes their army harder to rally, their desert don't provide campaign-wise bonus for them, and plus, they don't have shield for neither of their tier2 infantry. But they are doing fine in most campaign I've played, probably because they have quite decent shock cav units, and their no shield basic units are decent against cav.
Valandia don't have shield for most their infantry units, but they are also doing fine, that's because they have great shock cav units. It's very common in campaigns I've played to see Valandians conquered settlements from Sturgians, Battarians, and West Empire, they all have more shielded infantry units comparing to Valandians.
Battarian usually last for long enough to see at least one of the empire factions been crushed. Their tier1 is trash compares to the rest cultures, but their skirmisher are really doing fine. Those are very decent skirmisher since tier2. Indeed that their tier2 melee infantry don't always have a shield, but their spear made them less killable. Their archer units are even better, although not in number, but are good enough to make a difference in end battle range duel.

As soon as the game no longer let lords leading army of recruits, you will find out that having a shield for tier2 or really doesn't matter that much. Adding a shield for tier2 is easy, even I can do it in less than 20 minutes, but I wish TW work mroe on battle AI, the AI need to understand different formation group according to the unit's equipment set, and make a better use of each unit with a decent timing. So far the AI seems to be using the same formation group setting as the player's, but I think they need to have their own tactic in the battle.


Yep agree. Another thing is that equipment is not taken into account in calculated battles. This means that in most of the battles that happen on the map the fact that some.unit have shield or not doesn't matter.
As for player battles from 1.3.0 experience. The army compositions are better and battles are a bit longer just because AI have more vet troops. Ranged fire also has a little less impact so they made a step into right direction.
 
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