Euthanize the multiplayer dog

Users who are viewing this thread

flashn00b

Sergeant at Arms
Never thought I'd say this myself considering that the hours i sunk into this game have exclusively been on the multiplayer mode, and for the past two years +change I've spent on multiplayer, it's apparent to me that Bannerlord's multiplayer is beyond saving, even when the competing Chivalry 2 is in a state that could best be described as "sitting on their laurels".

Archers
I think the biggest and easiest problem to mention is how overpowered archers are in BL MP. I know more often than not, players have enough honor to not spam the ever loving **** out of them, though I've also seen my fair share of games where a disproportionate quantity of archers can be used as a valid substitute for individual player skill, and is made even worse when arrows have a nonzero chance of penetrating shields. In cases like these, the only forms of counterplay against an all-archer team is to be an archer yourself, or quit the game and play Chiv2 instead cuz that game has archer limits (16% specifically).

I know there are other problems in BL MP besides archers, but I think that if class limits were a thing for server hosting tools (and a similarly strict limit on archers for TaleWorlds servers), I'm pretty sure that would've kept at least a decent chunk of people in the game, rather than install the Epic Launcher for what actually is a medieval PVP game instead of a third person shooter dressed like one. I know i've said this multiple times, but Gundam Evolution exists if i wanted to play a shooter.

Factions
One big gripe I had with Bannerlord's balancing that I personally never experienced with in Warband is how factions are balanced... or should I say imbalanced. Similar to singleplayer, we have Vlandia, Battania, Khuzait, Aserai, Sturgia, and Empire. Yes, I can understand that trying to balance a PVP game around these different factions would be a difficult undertaking, but I've played this game long enough to believe that some of the imbalances are intentional design decisions.

I doubt there's a sane person left that's still playing Bannerlord's multiplayer, but for when those folks stuck around before giving up on BL MP, it's apparent to me that no one really liked playing against Vlandia due to a lot of good things they have going for them: their peasant has the best mace in the game, the Voulge may as well be a 2h blunt weapon, and it's faster than both mauls, they're better at spamming archers than other factions, and their cavalry are almost impossible to kill.

Meanwhile, Aserai has very few options in countering enemy armor, and Sturgia has even fewer. Khuzait v Aserai is arguably the fairest fight I can think of, though when either Aserai or Sturgia is up against Battania or Vlandia, you can guess who will win when heavy armor is pitted against a woeful lack of blunt weapons.

And if we wanna really scrape the bottom of the barrel for a lack of game balance, let's look at Empire! At a glance, they seem to be an overwhelmingly average-performing faction. However, they've got one fatal flaw behind their apparent adequacy: their 100 cost unit, which is honestly the absolute worst in the game and I don't know how far off the deep end you have to be in order to defend their terribleness.

Imperial Recruit
Yes, I get it. The Calradian Empire has such a massive army that they have a lot more soldiers than they have the equipment and other resources they need to properly equip and train them, so they instead rely on sheer force of numbers to overwhelm the stronger grunts of other factions. The biggest problem of designing a faction around this is that in a multiplayer game, both teams are often expected to have even headcounts, so designing around "strength in numbers" is automatically a bad idea. However, the fact that the recruit remains as unplayably bad as they've been since 2020 has me convinced that TaleWorlds intended for the Empire to have the downside of "ragequit if you die as this unit" when playing as non-Recruit units.

Regardless if you suggest that the recruit should be buffed, or for everything else to be buffed around the downside of having to play the recruit if you die without scoring a kill, the TaleWorlds community will be up in arms about anything that involves taking away a source of free kills because god forbid that you give a fighting chance to every possible faction matchup. If i'm perfectly honest, the faction balancing in Bannerlord and the community's insistence that it should remain unbalanced is the main reason why I think BL MP is a lost cause, but there are a couple more problems

Battle Mode
I feel like this mode is more or less an anachronism due to the gold system in Bannerlord vs the gold system in Warband. From what I remember of WB MP, Battle is more or less a medieval version of Counter-Strike's Fight Yard mode, where you have only one life and the more kills you get before dying, the more cash you can spend on the next round. I don't think this necessarily works with Bannerlord's class/perk system and if anything, I think a one life mode actually makes Vlandia better, while Sturgia, Aserai, and Empire are much worse than they are in other modes. Meanwhile, Chivalry 2's counterpart lets you use your favourite loadouts even if you consistently die without scoring a kill

Siege mode
On paper, it could've been a better "big battle" experience than Chivalry 2's Team Objective mode, since you could theoretically have 50v50 battles, and I can tell you that such a packed server can be a lot of chaotic fun. However, said fun is often ruined when a group of players are in a private group chat on Discord, and one of the "defending" players coordinate with whoever's on the attacking team to make some backcaps that'd normally be impossible without the attacking players having spies on the enemy team, and no one seems to notice said spies fast enough to initiate a votekick. I think what could've fixed Siege Mode is if you had to capture A/B/C before capturing D/E/F before capturing G (although some maps would need to have a "not required" or "always capturable" flag on specific points). Fortunately, i think even the few players left in Bannerlords multiplayer seem to agree that Siege mode is poorly implemented even considering a lack of sanity on their end.

Conclusion
Between TaleWorlds intentionally making things unbalanced and a community that is adverse to anything that threatens their ability to farm free kills, I don't think it should come off as a surprise that people would rather install the Epic Games Launcher if it meant playing a better medieval PVP game. Hell, Chivalry 2 has been on Steam for a year, so "I'm loyal to Steam" is no longer a valid reason to keep playing Bannerlord's multiplayer. Heck, since Chiv2 has been on Steam for a year, I think there was plenty time for TaleWorlds to improve upon the multiplayer mode in an attempt to stay relevant but again, between intentional imbalances and a community that wants to keep farming for their free kills, I think there's really only one thing that can be done for Bannerlord's multiplayer.

I think TaleWorlds should actually try and strike a deal with Torn Banner Studios and Tripwire Interactive LLC for an indefinite crossover promo between Bannerlord and Chivalry 2, with two tiers and an additional loyalty reward independent of said tiers:

Bannerlord promo
Requirement: Simply own both Bannerlord and Chiv2 on Steam. We could even have a Bannerlord/Chiv2 bundle for this. Could include some lower-tier cosmetics based on Calradia's countries to wear in Chivalry 2

Bannerlord loyalty
For people like me who have wasted too much time on Bannerlord and want to have something to show for that time wastage, in the form of extra XP to allocate between classes in Chiv2, and some higher tier cosmetics based on Calradia's countries

The True Butterlords
An independent third tier that you can simultaneously have with both Promo and Loyalty tiers (If you never played BL MP but own Chiv2, you'll have Bannerlord Promo/Butterlord). This is the tier intended for people who have owned Bannerlord and Chiv2 prior to the creation of a crossover bundle. Includes the following helmets to wear in Chiv2:

Agatha: Death Mask of King Harlaus
Mason Order: Death Mask of Sanjar Khan
Tenosia: Death Mask of Sultan Hakim

Given the nature of my suggestion, i think this would require Taleworlds to actually shut down their multiplayer mode, although they could have a 6 month grace period to earn Bannerlord-themed cosmetics to wear in Chivalry 2, or be stuck with silver tier cosmetics come server shutdown. After said shutdown, I think TaleWorlds can afford to the master server up and running for a year to allow players to import their Bannerlord progression to Chivalry 2.

And because we all know that there's enough of a following for Mount&Blade for a potential third game, I think TaleWorlds should just make Chivalry 3 the M&B3 multiplayer at an official level.

For the record, me saying "euthanize the multiplayer dog" is not me wanting TaleWorlds to focus their efforts entirely on a singleplayer game, but rather disappointment towards a huge time sink that has nothing to show for it, even when the competing game is no longer tied to a universally loathed game client. As for why I am posting this in the general Bannerlord forum instead of the multiplayer one, it's clear to me that the current MP userbase cares only about farming free kills from weak units and/or playing as overpowered units themselves. The complete removal of multiplayer will not only free up development time for singleplayer updates, but I think the combining of a termination of service with the crowning of another game as the official replacement will force the current multiplayer userbase to a game where they will actually have to work for their wins instead of treating a PVP game as an outlet to stroke their fragile ego.
 
Chiv 2 is dying as well though.

🤷‍♂️
Considering the queue times on 64p, I'm not so sure about that. If anything, I think its current state can be better described as the fruits of a winner sitting on their laurels.

With Taleworlds doing what they're doing with Bannerlord's multiplayer though, I can't imagine Torn Banner ever having any incentive to improve on what they already have but the point of this thread is to call for the complete termination of Bannerlord's multiplayer, just cuz the people who genuinely care about it are instead playing Chiv2, while the people left behind are just the crazies who farm kills from Recruits while they themselves are likely forming Sergeant/Sharpshooter deathballs

If "crazy people who need to have have their fragile egos constantly fed with free wins in a PVP game" is the target audience that Taleworlds wants to cater to with Bannerlord's multiplayer, I think most people will be better off if that component of the game were to be burned to the ground
 
Last edited:
I'll only reply to a few points but in general you can identify some problems but can't see the wider picture.

Yes archers are OP especially in siege defense but the solution isn't to add a limit as they are very weak once you get into melee and break the outer shell. The solution is to remove the infinite arrow barrels as archers never really need to look for ammo nor enter melee nor even aim half the time. The second solution would be to implement a no shooting into melee mechanic when team damage is off. People shoot dozens of arrows into a melee fight when they really shouldn't be able to. So if a player is within 5 meters etc of an enemy they should be immune from ranged damage.

For factions you completely miss the mark on balance no one thinks sturgia has trouble dealing with armour. The imperial recruit is no where near the worst unit and is better than the Peasant, Kern(batt l inf I think that's the name) and even the brigand which is paid and maybe even better than rabble. Its a versatile troop that can easily defeat other light troops with its javelins and is OP in TDM but it does struggle a little in melee against some other units but its not even bad in melee. I'd happily duel you to prove recruits aren't bad.

No one is strategically planning and spying to win sieges at least not for the vast majority of games it's actually east to run through defenders most of the time. Yes back caping is an issue but should be fixed by adding flag prerequisites or something like that.
 
Archers are only great because calvary suck, if they teach the ai to charge in formation and actually use their lances then archers around be an easy counter
 
Yes archers are OP especially in siege defense but the solution isn't to add a limit as they are very weak once you get into melee and break the outer shell. The solution is to remove the infinite arrow barrels as archers never really need to look for ammo nor enter melee nor even aim half the time. The second solution would be to implement a no shooting into melee mechanic when team damage is off. People shoot dozens of arrows into a melee fight when they really shouldn't be able to. So if a player is within 5 meters etc of an enemy they should be immune from ranged damage.
Team Deathmatch doesn't have arrow barrels but when I start seeing archer spam, it's an instant alt+f4 to boot up Chiv2 instead, because a disproportionate number of archers is still a valid substitute for individual player skill. When you have a huge quantity of archers on your team, aiming becomes optional because with the sheer number of arrows heading downrange, you're bound to hit something eventually esp. if arrows have a nonzero chance to penetrate shields.

no one thinks sturgia has trouble dealing with armour
The only blunt weapon Sturgia has is the Maul on Berserker. 2 armor means you're a free javelin kill and a swinging speed of 74 means that it's slow enough that most one-handed weapons can still outswing it. I fail to see how Berserkers can stop sergeant/sharpshooter deathballs. With TaleWorlds insisting that the Varyag should be an axe specialist, I think the only units that CAN be given blunt weapons are the Hunter (Light Archer) and Brigand (Javelin infantry)

The imperial recruit is no where near the worst unit and is better than the Peasant, Kern(batt l inf I think that's the name) and even the brigand which is paid and maybe even better than rabble
I dunno, they don't have too much going for them tbh. If i'm to compare the Recruit against every peasant:

Shared:
+Has Javelins as their base equipment
+MIGHT be on par with the 90 cost units if i squint hard enough
-Basically naked in terms of melee weapons and armor
-Only useful perk combination is Long Sword/Better Javelins. Even then, other units are fully capable of overwhelming you
-Second worst anti-cavalry option. Only thing worse is the Peasant Levy's complete lack thereof

Peasant Levy:
Sickle is still stronger than the Gladius, but you at least have 17 armor to compensate vs the Recruit's 10
More durable shield, since Village Militia and Looter are the only perks you're gonna care about
Hammer is actually the best mace in the game overall, even beating the Sergeant's Vlandian Mace

Rabble:
Base kit has a blunt weapon, which might be useful in Vlandia or Battania matchups
Khuzait Sickle is arguably the best axe that a peasant can have
Has a Pike.
Base kit has a shield. Looter perk on Rabble might actually be OP due to this

Warrior (Sturgia):
Short Sword can still do a lot of damage, esp. with the Warrior perk
Higher durability shield
Raider Axe is still a solid contender, even if it lacks the Khuzait Sickle's reach
174 reach spear is still inadequate for stabbing horses. 6 points away from bare minimum, but still better than Recruit being 26 short

Tribal Warrior:
Pretty strong peasant unit overall. I think the only weakness they have is that Aserai can overrely on Tribals when facing against Vlandia or Aserai, which can make them vulnerable to shock troops.
One-handed spear is on par with light cavalry spears

Clan Warrior:
No base shield, Shield perk worse than other factions' shields
Blood Rage perk can be pretty handy when it comes to damage output, is also the Axe perk
Also has a pike similarly to Khuzait
Mace/Axe combo can prove decently powerful against heavy infantry units. Axe can make up for the Mace's slow swinging speed when fighting against other peasants.
 
Team Deathmatch doesn't have arrow barrels but when I start seeing archer spam, it's an instant alt+f4 to boot up Chiv2 instead, because a disproportionate number of archers is still a valid substitute for individual player skill. When you have a huge quantity of archers on your team, aiming becomes optional because with the sheer number of arrows heading downrange, you're bound to hit something eventually esp. if arrows have a nonzero chance to penetrate shields.


The only blunt weapon Sturgia has is the Maul on Berserker. 2 armor means you're a free javelin kill and a swinging speed of 74 means that it's slow enough that most one-handed weapons can still outswing it. I fail to see how Berserkers can stop sergeant/sharpshooter deathballs. With TaleWorlds insisting that the Varyag should be an axe specialist, I think the only units that CAN be given blunt weapons are the Hunter (Light Archer) and Brigand (Javelin infantry)


I dunno, they don't have too much going for them tbh. If i'm to compare the Recruit against every peasant:

Shared:
+Has Javelins as their base equipment
+MIGHT be on par with the 90 cost units if i squint hard enough
-Basically naked in terms of melee weapons and armor
-Only useful perk combination is Long Sword/Better Javelins. Even then, other units are fully capable of overwhelming you
-Second worst anti-cavalry option. Only thing worse is the Peasant Levy's complete lack thereof

Peasant Levy:
Sickle is still stronger than the Gladius, but you at least have 17 armor to compensate vs the Recruit's 10
More durable shield, since Village Militia and Looter are the only perks you're gonna care about
Hammer is actually the best mace in the game overall, even beating the Sergeant's Vlandian Mace

Rabble:
Base kit has a blunt weapon, which might be useful in Vlandia or Battania matchups
Khuzait Sickle is arguably the best axe that a peasant can have
Has a Pike.
Base kit has a shield. Looter perk on Rabble might actually be OP due to this

Warrior (Sturgia):
Short Sword can still do a lot of damage, esp. with the Warrior perk
Higher durability shield
Raider Axe is still a solid contender, even if it lacks the Khuzait Sickle's reach
174 reach spear is still inadequate for stabbing horses. 6 points away from bare minimum, but still better than Recruit being 26 short

Tribal Warrior:
Pretty strong peasant unit overall. I think the only weakness they have is that Aserai can overrely on Tribals when facing against Vlandia or Aserai, which can make them vulnerable to shock troops.
One-handed spear is on par with light cavalry spears

Clan Warrior:
No base shield, Shield perk worse than other factions' shields
Blood Rage perk can be pretty handy when it comes to damage output, is also the Axe perk
Also has a pike similarly to Khuzait
Mace/Axe combo can prove decently powerful against heavy infantry units. Axe can make up for the Mace's slow swinging speed when fighting against other peasants.

Archers in TDM are strong for the first minute before people start playing heavy infantry and they get destroyed when light cav starts being used except on the khuzait castle when they sometimes form archer nests and survive. TBH it just sounds like you want to play chivalry not bannerlord. Arrows cannot penetrate shield they can go round them but shield magnetism is thing making that fairly difficult.

The feller axe does serious damage so blunt doesn't matter. Sturgian's bulk is its varyag not berserker. Varyag's are easily the best defensive infantry though are a little slow for attacking.

The recruit is fairly decent having a mid shield by default and poor sword and has javs which are very strong for such as class allowing it to counter shock inf and archers at close range. It's melee upgrades are fairly good. Peasant actually has 9 armour but can be improved to 17 if you forgo the hammer. The sickle is very short range even if it is fast and it does very little damage. The hammer isn't best in game only better than the vlandian one which isn't that good. While the recruit shield has better durability it has worse armour and must be taken via a perk, the perk recruit shield is far better
While the rabble is better in melee and some specialised situations it is inferior to the recruit at ranged with a worse shield and only stones.
Warrior and tribal warrior are the strongest l infs and that is due to balance especially for the aserai.
While the clan warrior has some great potential and flexibility much of that isn't useful as it has a terrible shield and overlapping perks leading it to really be a mid unit that's good against cav.

As for the comparisons to paid units the recruit is around as good as the brigand and in some ways a little better than the wildling which just has more armour.
I'd still like to duel you to prove the recruit isn't that bad.
 
For my 2 cents, it's already dead on Xbox. I don't even care anymore about mp. Just want the stupid 1.2 before starfield. Multiplayer problems are huge compared to sp. They need to separate sp & mp updates. No amount of help gonna fix mp on console. Instead, we console plebs are just gonna come back in six months to year and wonder what went wrong with their thinking. Dlc MAY revive some interest after starfield dies down but never in the numbers they want. Bg3 coming to console will kill more attention. Unless they implement changes in regard to console mods & dlc, this game probably gonna disappear into the maelstrom for awhile if not for good. It's shame to as they were just starting to get back some console respect. ( they lost mine after warband bs.)
 
Back
Top Bottom