Beta e1.7.2 Troop & Equipment Changes

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MostBlunted

Sergeant Knight
That's why I'm " alarmed " about this kind of slight changes introduced in 1.7.2... In my opinion, before even getting down to "balancing" troop trees, the meaningful organization of the items and the reformulation of the protection/damage aspect would be of URGENT APPLICATION beforehand.
Yes, IF they change armor stats after their troop balances they can just start over again. You need to fix the base (armor stats / behaviour) first before you start fine tuning. At least every sane human would do it this way so it makes sense that TW does it the other way around I guess.
 

nereid

Sergeant
you guys plan on making armour useful?
going from a 30 set to 70 is nothing but a cosmetic change
On one hand I do love the cosmetics but on the other hand it would really rock if you could get some armor ratings that would really show a difference (I am looking at you, looter homing missile, doing around 14 damage against cataphract armor...).
 
I would like to see finally that light armors were sufficient against arrows from range, while heavy armors were very sufficient against regular arrows just from close distance and ap/heavy arrows were countering those armors though they were very expensive so upgrading to heavy unit should be mirrored in price much more but those heavies should realy be able to tank.

Ofc melee cut dmg should be weak against those heavy armors but axes should have some ap modifier not just cut dmg for axes were kind of hybrid maces - had enough weight to have bludgeoning effect like mace too. Pierce dmg should not make armor just half efficient but rather had some flat resist lowered value from armor stat not making heaviest armor light one by halving it.

Also imo speed bonus for dmg is too strong, especially for arrows from horse, if they were shot from close with no arc so full speed fine but with range and greater arc that speed taken from movement is going down. Arrows should loose energy with range much more, just naked ppl or with clothed with regular cloth should fear arrows from max range. AI ofc should be scripted to avoid shooting at max range against armored units wasting their ammo.
 
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Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Yes, IF they change armor stats after their troop balances they can just start over again. You need to fix the base (armor stats / behaviour) first before you start fine tuning. At least every sane human would do it this way so it makes sense that TW does it the other way around I guess.
I don't know at what level (satisfactory to us) they intend to fix the damage/protection formula ( wish they'd shut the mouths of all of us who have criticized it at the end, but I'm skeptical at the moment)... but it's these kinds of decisions they make that I put inside the Bannerlord experience™ box... one step forward, two steps back™... the plow before the mule... you know :sneaky:...Things that have been thoroughly and meticulously feedbacked by fans/community since the game was released two years ago.
 

0tto

Regular
a threshold followed by a reduction
ie: (dmg - armor) = X, X reduced by armor/100
hit by 20 with 20 armour 20-20 = no damage
hit by 40 with 20 armour 40-20 = 20, 20 * .8 = 16 damage
hit by 60 with 20 armour 60-20 = 40, 40 * .8 = 32 damage
hit by 80 with 20 armour 80-20 = 60, 60 * .8 = 48 damage
hit by 100 with 20 armour 10-20 = 80, 80 * .8 = 64 damage

for top tier troops or 1,000,000 dollar armor
hit by 20 with 50 armour 20-50 = no damage
hit by 40 with 50 armour 40-50 = no damage
hit by 60 with 50 armour 60-50 = 10, 10 * 0.5 = 5 damage
hit by 80 with 50 armour 80-50 = 30, 30 * 0.5 = 15 damage
hit by 100 with 50 armour 100-50 = 50, 50 * 0.5 = 25 damage

pierce reduces the second pass by 50%, blunt 80%


or just use warband's formula, the top troops reflected their cost in their survivability
with the current formula everyone's the same troop, some just have fancy clothes and get paid 5x more
 

Hechicera

Recruit
We want heavy axemen to be more offensive-inclined troops while heavy spearmen should work better in a defensive formation. Heavy axemen have good harassing weapons and as such work better against shield walls.

@anoddhermit already has one response that is not working in practice. I noticed the same thing once my armies got large enough, and also noticed that shieldbreaker units ... didn't. So I just spent several hours running unmodded sim battles. Here is why they don't in 1.7.2, and based on that some suggestions.

General note on sim battles. Line length matters due to moral, and very much when line breaking a shiled wall. I used 200 v 200 with the AI line being either 200 Darkhan or 200 Legionary. The AI line is longer than your default line, so I would always adjust my line to be the same length, then charge. Also Darkhan still underperform vs Legionary, but that is not much of a surprise.

A. OK, why. It is the throwing axes! On multiple tests, if I "Held Fire" then charged the line breaker troops performed the job adequately.

One - formation matters initially. The throwing animations are staggered, which visually looks quite nice, but it means the lines staggered as they approached. That meant the troops that threw later (moved forward more) were easily enveloped by the advancing shield troops.

Two - AI was more likely to have the shields up if a ranged missile was incoming, so the AI front line was always all shields. With actual archers also present, this may not always be a factor. Maybe they'd have them up for archers. But the throwing axe made sure they shield was up even if no archers.

Three - and the worst offender by far. After small sub melees broke out, whenever the throwing axe equipped line breakers went to reposition themselves (AI movement not a command) they would nearly always throw another bleeping axe. That meant the non-throwing weapon carrying shield troops quickly moved to them and smacked them in the face before the throw finished.

The staggered formation, the stacks of axes and desire to throw when melee is close made them always lose. If I "Held Fire" before they got close enough to throw the win rate was over 90% using any of the heavy axe shield breaker types, all which now have throwing axes. So even if they were worth throwing, which they aren't, the act of throwing them is not worth doing. Esp. with Legionary and Darkhan having no thrown weapon and closing during the throw animation.

The throwing axes themselves are part of the problem. They not only aren't worth throwing, but having at all harms the AI movement both at engagement and once the lines have met. If they are meant to break or even severely damage shields, they don't. So the movement negatives are all that is left.

All axes except 2H were not useful for shield breaking. Using 1H axe troops in the testing showed that 1H axes are nearly as bad as thrown at shield damage. That doesn't seem right.

B. So, fixing? Not every one of these needs to be changed. But at least one or two. They are just options.

Fix the throwing axes used for shield breaking. First, only one throwing axe, a behemoth called a francesca was used for this purpose. In game the "franceska" is the lightest of all! So if you want axes on shield breaker troops to break shields, give them an axe just for that job. Make that axe have a significant shield break bonus so it is at least worth throwing on that troop type. Skirmishers can use the existing throwing axes. If you do make a shield breaker specialist throwing axe variant should be the "francesca". Make it worth throwing.

Alter how all axes break shields. It currently feels like a chance based on damage. So thrown axes give a small bonus. Also The thing that made shields break was weight not the "axe". That is why the thrown francesca was so heavy. So, change the shield break bonus to be based on axe weight, and give the axes various troops use weights useful for the purpose you want them to have in the troop tree. Or if shield break is already a stand alone bonus and not tied to damage, adjust it so axes used by various troops better fit their role in the troop tree. All the axes. Only 2H seem to fit the role as of 1.7.2.

Change the AI distance where shield breaker melee is willing to throw the axe to: only if the target is very far. This prevents them from raising the axe to throw in melee and getting a sword in the face. It might also give them a chance to regain formation before collision after an initial throw wave.

Take the thrown axes away from shield break melee specialists. Give them something else? Part of the issue is that Legionary troops no longer stop to throw, and this is an advantage in AI movement for them. Maybe make a "hook axe" like was used to grab a shield. Not thrown, leave thrown on skirmishers. Have the "hook axe" nullify or "break" a shield. So they'd use a hook axe to break the shield if the target had a shield. If no shield, or once broken, then not switch to 2H or regular melee weapon. So only this new non-thrown axe is the "axe shield break specialist weapon".

Make axes used on shield break troops only throwable once. This doesn't fix problem one, but if it were at least worth throwing then it may justify staggering the formation on impact. But then they'd have to be very good. Also, with Legionary not throwing and using stack size 1 as the flag for that, this seems messier.

Anyone else with suggestions? I am done spending hours watching troop animations for the day.
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
I'm glad to see troops gear is being looked at as there is a lot of new equipment that should be used for factions not being used.

A few personal recommendations:

Pila - Pila should go back to being throwing weapons as it was one of the things that made the Empire troops unique and it is redundant for Menavaliaton to have 2 spears. This should be changed back asap.

Valandian Pikemen - The two handed sword should be removed from the Voulgier unit and moved to the pikemen unit. This unit is completely useless as they are and this would fix this. Also the Voulgier simply don't need it and it is completely redundant and overkill since they have throwing axes as well. I have tested this and it made the unit fun and gave them a role that could be useful. Two handed swords complement pikes very well and was a favored tactic in the later periods with the Landsknechts.

Imperial Legionary - They should have just mail mits instead of the lordly gauntlets, they look out of place on this mid tier unit and are too fancy plus since it is gauntlets that most of the lords in the game use.

Imperial Elite Cataphract - This units should be the pentacle of military technology and have the best equipment money can buy. I would give this unit Cataphract guantlets, Cataphract boots, Cataphract lance, and Cataphract mace. I would also consider re-naming the unit to Imperial Royal Cataphracts.
 

five bucks

Knight
I'm glad to see troops gear is being looked at as there is a lot of new equipment that should be used for factions not being used.

A few personal recommendations:

Pila - Pila should go back to being throwing weapons as it was one of the things that made the Empire troops unique and it is redundant for Menavaliaton to have 2 spears. This should be changed back asap.
Yes!
Valandian Pikemen - The two handed sword should be removed from the Voulgier unit and moved to the pikemen unit. This unit is completely useless as they are and this would fix this. Also the Voulgier simply don't need it and it is completely redundant and overkill since they have throwing axes as well. I have tested this and it made the unit fun and gave them a role that could be useful. Two handed swords complement pikes very well and was a favored tactic in the later periods with the Landsknechts.
This would be good. Would distribute the interesting weapons between the two units better.
Imperial Legionary - They should have just mail mits instead of the lordly gauntlets, they look out of place on this mid tier unit and are too fancy plus since it is gauntlets that most of the lords in the game use.
Imperial Elite Cataphract - This units should be the pentacle of military technology and have the best equipment money can buy. I would give this unit Cataphract guantlets, Cataphract boots, Cataphract lance, and Cataphract mace.
+1 for this too.
I would also consider re-naming the unit to Imperial Royal Cataphracts.
Disagree - only Rhagaea claims to be a queen, while Garios is a Dominus-style emperor and Lucon is a Republican Princeps-style emperor, both of whom nominally distanced themselves from the concept of monarchy. In other words, they were trying not to look like kings or royalty.
 

0tto

Regular
if you want to fix sturgia remove the invisible shields
their axes are ok vs shields, but they hit friendly shields just as often
 

Radimov

Regular
Im sorry but these new gear changes are all over the place:

- Aserai Master Archer looks more imperial than Aserai
- Aserai Mameluke Palace Guard, Vlandian Voulgier and Sturgian Heroic Line Breaker have less body armor value compared to the Battanian Veteran Falxman even though just by actually watching the gear they have you would imagine it would be the other way around but...
- Sturgian Heavy Axeman, if your point was to make people actually not getting them, i mean.... you succeeded i guess. You guys already had two pretty decent iterations of this T5 unit, so why this?
- Sturgian Horse Raider using a Khuzait shoulder... nice. At least use the Bear Pelt or Rough Bearskin for a close Vikingesque look instead of going Asian...
- Imperial Elite Menavliaton.... MBB already has some cool looking pieces of gear, and what he had looks better for what he represents, got to love those Vlandian gloves to "pair" with the shoulders right? i mean the new gear looks nice but just tweak the value of the pieces
- Imperial Menavliaton, do i even?

This looks way more an actual T5 unit but the armor values are just low. (i guess it would be +/- in line with what we already have)
LV7wK2T.jpg



- Khuzait Archer T4 actually looks more like a T5 than the actual T5 Khuzait Marksman, and upgrading from T4 to T5 means that you get a worse shoulders... (i can understand MAYBE in terms of balance of the Armor values but common.... makes no sense besides that) Same happens with their Horse Archer counterparts
- Khuzait Darkhan still using the Battania Scale Warlord Bracers instead of using the Bronze Bracers because why not.... is that 2 armor value or the 0.2 differential that prevents it?
- Khuzait Heavy Lancer using that poor excuse of gloves... a T5 unit with that...

I know there is the T6 but these T5 are supposed to be the top of line for their respective factions and here they are missing pieces or just using T2 to T3 pieces.... nice.....

I don't know, i might just being blind or w/e but after seeing after so many versions that actually it looked pretty decent stuff and stabilizing and then we get this.... it's feels like you hit the random button in the char creation and you got this lol

I care about the game and also already contributed in several bug reports (just mentioning for the royal guards out there)

P.s: some are not new but w/e
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
Can we give Cataphracts Glaives? Just imagine the big tanky boys riding around but they actually kill enemies because they have swinging polearm! It'll be amazing. Also why not a bow and arrows? No I'm not kidding, it was perk option in the MP beta too. Make them good!.
 

MostBlunted

Sergeant Knight
Yea, RBM fixes it too, I mean I would even understand it if it would have just been a bug but it´s design decision 🤡

Bannerlord - Broken by Design
New fragrances from TaleWorlds

Glaives that destroy everything within 253 metres are fine, but throwable Pilas are too much! I got it TW...I got it...
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Can we give Cataphracts Glaives? Just imagine the big tanky boys riding around but they actually kill enemies because they have swinging polearm! It'll be amazing. Also why not a bow and arrows? No I'm not kidding, it was perk option in the MP beta too. Make them good!.
The bow is plausible and at the same time interesting. The glaive... you've skidded and crashed into the wall :lol: ... No, please, no glaives to cataphract...
Bannerlord - Broken by Design
New fragrances from TaleWorlds

Glaives that destroy everything within 253 metres are fine, but throwable Pilas are too much! I got it TW...I got it...
🎷:lol: absolutely...
 
God do you people really care that much about Vlandian leather gloves and imperial capes? I mean, stuf like Imperial shoulder Pteurges (the leather strippy stuff) is something that only imperials should have, but sometimes you gotta just accept that a cape is a cape, and boots are boots.

Its why I also don't get the complaints about the shared lamellar that Sturgia and the Khuzaits have- its not really unique.
 

five bucks

Knight
Yea, RBM fixes it too, I mean I would even understand it if it would have just been a bug but it´s design decision 🤡

Bannerlord - Broken by Design
New fragrances from TaleWorlds

Glaives that destroy everything within 253 metres are fine, but throwable Pilas are too much! I got it TW...I got it...
The baffling thing too is that balancing swinging polearms i.e. glaives would be a really quick change to the damage or swing speed stat, it's a really incredibly obvious balance problem that's existed for 2 years of people pointing it out and yet we get mucking around with making pila unthrowable instead.

I do wonder if the people/person making these decisions are even playing the  campaign using a variety of troops, as opposed to just doing blinkered tests in custom battle involving certain troops they take an interest in at the time. Because if they are, this would explain why these nonsensical balance decisions (like making pioa occur, while long-term obvious problems continue to slip under the radar: the testers are testing in a vacuum.

And whoever this balance person is also doesn't seem to read the forum or get balance feedback passed on to them much. I really hope they at least read this thread and finally get the message:

Swinging polearms having great range, best damage and high speed is bad balancing that makes other melee weapons almost irrelevant, and needs to be fixed by either reducing their speed or reducing their damage.
 
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MostBlunted

Sergeant Knight
I do wonder if the people/person making these decisions are even playing the  campaign using a variety of troops, as opposed to just doing blinkered tests in custom battle involving certain troops they take an interest in at the time. Because if they are, this would explain why these nonsensical balance decisions occur, while long-term obvious problems continue to slip under the radar: the testers are testing in a vacuum.
Yes, I wonder too. I´ve never read any complaints about the Pila or about OP Legionarys, TWs decision was out of the blue.

If they would really test their stuff they would have noticed that their armor system is broken about ~2 years ago but for two years the Pila was fine and suddenly it was the root of all evil as it seems.

Then us peasants started to complain about the Pila and the best TW can do is to say "We discuss it internally", then we never heard of it again as always.

I don´t get it how hard you can **** up an EA game?
TW: Yes!
 

Radimov

Regular
God do you people really care that much about Vlandian leather gloves and imperial capes? I mean, stuf like Imperial shoulder Pteurges (the leather strippy stuff) is something that only imperials should have, but sometimes you gotta just accept that a cape is a cape, and boots are boots.

Its why I also don't get the complaints about the shared lamellar that Sturgia and the Khuzaits have- its not really unique.

It's called identity, there is nothing wrong if ex:
The lord from Sturgia goes to Khuzait side and "buys" the armor, the problem is having already from the start

Not to mention this is not even a lord with other faction armor style ... it's an actual unit. For you this makes sense? so why even have factions at that point... it would be way simpler to just have 1 uniform across the board... it's ridiculous, there is no logic behind that.

One thing is the MC doing that, it's based on your choice, the other thing is having different factions with each others gear.
I know this game isn't a historical correct, but some foundations need to be there. The same applies to all the people here talking about pila/pilum and the way it "should" work/visual. Just imagine turning Pilum into a bow... makes sense? easy as that.

There needs some consistency in how it's done. The three Imperial's make sense, but having Sturgia and Khuzait mix up or any other for that matter is ridiculous. I'm also in favor of the Lords trying to maintain that identity if possible and only break that rule if they change sides.
 
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