Armor lack of effectiveness Devs should consider

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I'm not asking for 0-1 damage. Unless it's like a glancing leg shot from a low tier bow at 50m or something.

You're overcomplicating it - all that's necessary is to change the pierce damage modifier number; then increase the damage number on each pierce melee weapon so their damage remains the same as it was before, except spears which can be raised a bit more (which needs to happen anyway). Also reduce the HP number of shields a bit (which needs to happen anyway). None of this is super complex.

Range will still be useful at all levels. Because (a) it was in Warband with over 2x more powerful armour, and (b) I'm only asking for 1.7x more powerful armour, and (c) we agree shields should be weaker also.
and I'm saying that can simply be done making bows/archers weaker directly first (particularly the top tier archers). Even fixing the shield HP nonsense would make range significantly stronger; where one shield could immediately make up to 3 archers obsolete (and waste their time in the short 3-4 minute battles). Then, if it's not enough (without making archers completely useless), adjust the armor calcs accordingly.
Spears need to be fixed regardless; recent vid StratGaming did with those companions really highlights it yet again for TW.
Archers obviously counter archers. You could say that about anything overpowered.
Troops pushing the ram/tower tend to get shot and killed, and since the buffs to defending siege engines, rams/towers get destroyed more often too. And you also have the time to build on top of that, so you won't be able to field rams/towers in every siege.
Shielded troops can't use their shields when being shot in enfilade. Castles are designed so that archers can shoot someone on a ladder or tower from all angles. In real life, your armour would be your protection when being shot at from all sides.
Sieges need a lot of fixes/balancing of its own so I'm always hesitant using it for/against as a reference but archers should be the best, before the gates/walls are taken. Which is the case - especially with it being a lot easier for attackers vs that 1-ladder nonsense in WB. Even in BL, right now, it's still more advantageous taking only infantry unless you do the pull-back/chokepoint/infinite arrow tactic (exploit at this point with how dumb AI pathing is).
You could steamroll with any top tier troop in Warband. It was a more balanced game than Bannerlord, where ranged top tier troops are much better than non-ranged top tier troops.
WB, archers were significantly more OP because they could break shields better. In BL, 50 shield infantry can easily defeat 50 archers (same tier); their advantage only shines in mixed battles where they are not the primary target (and because you can't 'target' them anyways).
Why should you use a ranged unit if their ranged attack does less damage than a melee attack? Because they can attack the enemy from a distance. They don't have to run all the way to the enemy to shoot them, meaning they can swap targets instantly. They don't have to risk fighting to kill people. They can't be blocked by melee weapons. They can shoot over the heads of your allies. If the enemy is standing still defensively and not coming to attack you, you can just bombard them with arrows. They can attack constantly during a siege, when melee troops can't due to the tower/ram/ladder not being ready yet. During a siege an archer can get 5 kills where a melee troop will get 0.

Surely you can agree this is sound logic.
Not disagreeing that archers aren't OP; just the solution. You want to improve the armor values/effectiveness to make archers weaker; I'd rather just make the archers themselves weaker.
TW probably doesn't see any solution is required at all.
Non noble archers are much more useful than non-noble infantry, and don't cost horses like cavalry do.
Because all kingdoms now have the 'same' tier upgrades; WB didn't really iirc, only select kingdoms had an archer in the same tier as a Huscarl or Rhodok Sergeant. If this requires 'nerfing' some range troops down a tier (closer to what WB was like) and are cheaper as result, that's a balance in its own sense (ie needing 5 archers vs 3 infantry equivalent).
 
Yes, but just changing the pierce damage reduction factor to counter ranged will create other problems, like making spears even more useless.
Did you read my previous post on that page?

"all that's necessary is to change the pierce damage modifier number; then increase the damage number on each pierce melee weapon so their damage remains the same as it was before, except spears which can be raised a bit more (which needs to happen anyway)"
The downside is that it makes battles take much longer to play out in a game where you fight dozens or hundreds of battles in every playthrough.
Yes, Bannerlord's quantity and quality of battles can be unfun after a while. For the following reasons:

1 - The same obvious tactics can win almost every battle with great results: spamming Khan's Guard and circling the enemy, or spamming ranged units with a token force of distraction infantry to make the enemy infantry drop their shields, then sitting on a hill and shooting everything to death. This is due to ranged damage being excessive, spears being weak, archer AI being unable to lead targets, and shields having too much HP. The player is never challenged to adapt their tactics, because the same tactic works every time. A fun game is a challenging one, and Bannerlord lacks tactical challenge.

2 - The player is required to fight multiple boring battles with an obvious outcome, eg hunting down a looter party with your high tier troops to fulfil a quest, or using an entire army of 1000 to siege a fief with only 10 defenders who will never surrender. Autocalc is an option to skip a boring battle but many players do not want to do this because it will incur random losses of high tier troops which would never happen in the actual battle.

3 - a lot of time lategame is spent sieging castles and towns, which is slow.

But all of these can be fixed, to increase the quality of battles while reducing the quantity.

1: Nerf archers' damage to armour so ranged spam+distraction is no longer the dominant strat. Nerf shield HP a bit so that archers don't become too weak and throwing weapons are more viable. Nerf Khan's Guard (either take the glaive, or nerf the glaive, or give worse armour) so they are no longer a cheat code. Buff spears slightly so infantry are more useful. Make archers able to track circling targets better so they can function as a soft counter to horse archers. Finally, make morale more impactful so that it comes into play more often as a tactical consideration. All of this will make the best tactic to win each battle less obvious, which will require more tactical challenge to the player, making battles more thought-provoking and fun.

2: Make heavily outnumbered lord parties or garrisons surrender, so the player doesn't have to sit through boring battles. Make autocalc results for heavily one-sided battles more representative of real battles, so players feel comfortable to skip boring curbstomps.

3: Make Engineering skill speed up the rate of building siege camps. As the player goes through the lategame, sieges will take less and less time to complete.

Let's say for argument's sake in Bannerlord now, there are 120 fiefs to siege, but once you hit halfway your vassals will take some for you, so let's say 70 sieges to win (each taking about 15min: 1050min). Then let's say 70 army battles (10min on average: 700min), and 300 lord party/looter battles (each 5min on average: 1500min). So, that's 50 hours of battles alone, sounds about right.

If 20% of those battles are curbstomps we can skip by fixing surrender and autocalc, then it becomes 40 hours. If ranged troops make up less than half of all troops but more than half of killing - so let's just say half - and we increase 50% of troops' ttk by 1.7x, then 40 hours with my proposed set of changes becomes 54 hours. But the quality of the battles you do play would also be higher. And also, less time sitting around waiting for siege camps to complete.
and I'm saying that can simply be done making bows/archers weaker directly first (particularly the top tier archers). Not disagreeing that archers aren't OP; just the solution. You want to improve the armor values/effectiveness to make archers weaker; I'd rather just make the archers themselves weaker.
Bow base damage and accuracy is acceptable though so why would you change that instead of the armour calculation? The armour calc is the obviously unrealistic part.
 
Yes, and although i agree with all the armor/pierce damage issues you are mentioning i think this "just buff pierce damage" aproach is too simplistic and will just create more problems that will have to be adressed later. If you increasse pierce damage you will make it too efective against unarmored troops, making it do more damage than cutting weapons. That would make the game mechanics of cutting being better than other damage types vs unarmored while blunt is good vs armor and pierce is kind of a middle ground fall apart and you will have one more issue to fix. I agree armor needs to be fixed but i think this game deserves a better system than it currently has.
 
Yes, and although i agree with all the armor/pierce damage issues you are mentioning i think this "just buff pierce damage" aproach is too simplistic and will just create more problems that will have to be adressed later. If you increasse pierce damage you will make it too efective against unarmored troops, making it do more damage than cutting weapons.
How many troops do not wear any kind of armour though? Looters (and not even all of them), that's pretty much it.
 
Bow base damage and accuracy is acceptable though so why would you change that instead of the armour calculation? The armour calc is the obviously unrealistic part.
Which is back to the same degree of subjectiveness as before. You think bow base damage/accuracy is acceptable, I don't; I think armour calc is acceptable; you don't.
Neither of us is wrong imo, but this is all entirely dependent on TW/devs - and if they do make any changes to any of this when that next patch comes in a few months.
 
How many troops do not wear any kind of armour though? Looters (and not even all of them), that's pretty much it.
T1 troops are 30% or more of most parties, their armor comparable to looters. T2 troops have very low armor, almost negligible and make up for more than 20% of most parties. T3 troops is were armor starts to do something but it's still mostly cloth armor for most troops.
 
Yes, Bannerlord's quantity and quality of battles can be unfun after a while.
I didn't say anything about fun in there, just remarking on the time spent in battle going way, way up, which makes it effectively impossible to get through a playthrough (player faction as strong or stronger than the others, when most people seem to restart) in a reasonable timeframe. Playing Bannerlord for 25 hours a month, RBM might make it take close to a year to get to that point.

That's more easily handled by rebalancing the campaign aspects to offer more rewards (and provide more risks) so as to accelerate things but RBM pointedly does not do that. It is just combat tweaks and modifications.
 
I have actually done a video about archers vs infantry in vanilla vs RBM recently. In vanilla the balance is totally of. T4 archers can beat T5 infantry with little to no loses if any kind of basic tactics is included (loose formation, splitting the archers into 2 formations to flank shielded infantry etc).

 
I didn't say anything about fun in there, just remarking on the time spent in battle going way, way up
It won't though if other changes are made too to compensate. I addressed this.
RBM might make it take close to a year to get to that point
RBM makes more drastic changes to armour protection and stamina than I'm proposing
I have actually done a video about archers vs infantry in vanilla vs RBM recently. In vanilla the balance is totally of. T4 archers can beat T5 infantry with little to no loses if any kind of basic tactics is included (loose formation, splitting the archers into 2 formations to flank shielded infantry etc).


Yep, vanilla balance is screwed and archers are OP.
 
RBM makes more drastic changes to armour protection and stamina than I'm proposing
It does swing it quite heavily to the other side; which is fine too, provided the rest of the game systems were also balanced accordingly (ie need other mods). In BL, particularly with a mod like RBM, it's a complete no-brainer to just upgrade all units to best tier given how cheap, easy, and sustainable they are.
Didn't feel as much the case in WB where there was a bit more use in massing the lower-tier options/compositions; at least for me.
Yep, vanilla balance is screwed and archers are OP.
That I 100% agree; how (and more so, if) TW does it, time (meaning 'a lot') will tell.
 
I'm releasing [RTI] Reworked Troops & Items v0.3 for warband.
If anyone wants some inspiration for how combat should be feeling, I made that mod as a point of reference for what could be done in Warband.
Rather than speaking in abstracts, the combat should be adjusted by feel incrementally. That's something the devs need to realize. It needs to be played and changed, repeatedly! Finally an equilibrium will be found.

That's where true balance comes from, that's how the game will be made to feel right.
 
It's not about realism (nice strawman btw), it's about good gameplay.

Mount & Blade: Warband is a good example of a satisfying balance between damage output and armor protection -leading to fun engaging gameplay.

Bannerlord armor is just a Fortnite skin.

Sad.
these always devolve into joules vs mm's of metal, stat graphs, wrestling with daggers, and other super technical bs

i just want milita to stop being legionaries. hit-to-ko is basically the same for everything with a difference of 2.
it gets bland. legionaries don't feel much more dangerous than the trained inf tier, one just drops the other 1 hit faster
 
In vanilla the balance is totally off. T4 archers can beat T5 infantry with little to no losses if any kind of basic tactics is included (loose formation, splitting the archers into 2 formations to flank shielded infantry etc).
Uh, why is this bad? Why would you have archers at all if infantry were going to reach them every single time?

Combined arms, guys. The point of the ranged troops is to kill things before they reach them. If the balance were reversed, if T5 infantry could beat T4 archers with little to no losses, you would all also be whinging about THAT. Sit down.

Also, Laboratory Tests are f*cking GARBAGE. I don't fight 40 inf vs 40 arch battles, I fight battles with soldiers I've recruited.
We are saying archers should do less damage than melee troops.
What game are you playing, serious question. T1 archer body shots never break 50 on T1 armor, and I eat 50+ from looters all day long.
Armor was NOT increased at all against pierce damage
I'm fairly sure that since Blunt is the base damage type, it was.
Warband worked.
T1 troops in Warband had, what, 20 hit points. (I happen to think that this is the ACTUAL original sin for BL, giving everyone 100HP [I tried to mod this, it didn't work])

If you find arrows & bolts too damaging, the solution is pretty simple; half each of the weapons' damage. Don't bother touching the armor or the calculations.
 
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Uh, why is this bad? Why would you have archers at all if infantry were going to reach them every single time?

Nobody is saying "infantry should reach archers alive every single time."

We are saying the third option you didn't acknowledge. It should happen more often. Not rarely, not all the time.
Combined arms, guys. The point of the ranged troops is to kill things before they reach them.
The point of ranged troops is that they are the only troop which can attack moving cavalry, and are the only troop that can attack without having to physically move close to their target (melee troops can't attack when they are bodyblocked by allies or terrain or walls), and the only troop that can attack while remaining out of harm's way, for example attacking an enemy sitting in a defensive formation, without having to risk actually getting attacked back.

Ranged troops have many, many benefits, and they were used in real life where armour was much more effective than it is in Bannerlord. They do not need to slaughter armoured units like machine gunners to be useful.
If the balance were reversed, if T5 infantry could beat T4 archers with little to no losses, you would all also be whinging about THAT. Sit down.
And again another false dilemma fallacy, as well as a straw man argument. You're arguing a situation that doesn't exist and nobody is proposing, and then you're arguing it could only go two possible ways, with no inbetween point.

That's not how it works. Balance is not an on/off switch between "OP" and "useless", it's a sliding scale with a middle point. That's the whole reason it's called "balance".

Right now archers are OP and we want them to be balanced. Nobody is proposing they should become useless.
What game are you playing, serious question. T1 archer body shots never break 50 on T1 armor, and I eat 50+ from looters all day long.
Why are you using T1 as an example, nobody has bows at T1? That isn't relevant.
I'm fairly sure that since Blunt is the base damage type, it was.
That sentence makes literally no sense in the context of what you replied to.
T1 troops in Warband had, what, 20 hit points. (I happen to think that this is the ACTUAL original sin for BL, giving everyone 100HP [I tried to mod this, it didn't work])
The hitpoints are also irrelevant here, because the fact of the matter is that it took archers longer to kill same-tier troops in Warband than they do in Bannerlord.

And yet archers were still useful in Warband. Proving that nerfing arrow damage to armour will not make archers useless.
If you find arrows & bolts too damaging, the solution is pretty simple; half each of the weapons' damage. Don't bother touching the armor or the calculations.
Their damage against armourless troops is fine and doesn't need to be nerfed. Their damage to armoured troops is the problem. Why are you so against changing armour? It's not a complicated change, it's already been done with blunt damage and that worked fantastically.

It's literally just a return of the approach from Warband which worked well. Except not even as drastic as that.
 
Right now archers are OP and we want them to be balanced. Nobody is proposing they should become useless.
What if archers are not op? What if the problem was/is and will always be the AI?
Cataphracts pull out their 2 handed polearm and sit in an arrow volley. Infantry puts shields up but then starts running left and right and expose flanks and back. You can see this in every battle.
Put up a shieldwall that holds the line and all of a sudden Archers do nothing.
I don´t say this is the only solution, but you can see what happens when you increase the armor a lot with the RBM mod. It turns noble cavalrie units into immortal tanks. If that´s what you want, go ahead. But i wouldn´t consider that balanced
 
They do not need to slaughter armoured units like machine gunners to be useful.
Talk about a false dichotomy! If I don't harrass their edges, shielded infantry can always reach melee. Always. Twenty legionaires will reach 100 Vet archers, every time.
Right now archers are OP
They really aren't. Skill issue. Take a handful of cavalry around your left flank, strafe through the archers. They will not be able to focus while your infantry approach. Six horsemen are capable of neutralizing 50 archers.
That sentence makes literally no sense in the context of what you replied to.
Maybe you should learn how armor works better if you don't understand.
Why are you so against changing armour?
I'm absolutely NOT against changing armor in vacuu. But after all the prerelease tweaks I've seen, used, and made, the armor change that TW did for release, which you already praise, is working fine. Archers are DANGEROUS. Not unbeatable. You act like you're not just stating an opinion, when you are. Take this Elder God's opinion:
What if archers are not op? What if the problem was/is and will always be the AI?
 
Uh, why is this bad? Why would you have archers at all if infantry were going to reach them every single time?

Combined arms, guys. The point of the ranged troops is to kill things before they reach them. If the balance were reversed, if T5 infantry could beat T4 archers with little to no losses, you would all also be whinging about THAT. Sit down.
Exactly, combined arms. You should use archers as part of combined arms (because it makes the game more rewarding when you do it right - good game design), if T4 archers beat T5 infantry before it even reaches them, you dont have to use combined arms, you can just use the archers, infantry esentially becomes obsolete, maybe you can have token force to tank enemy AI in shieldwall while your 90% archer army shoots them. Also archers got obvious advantage in situations where you cannot reach them quickly enough (castle walls, hills etc), why should they be better or equal even on flat ground.
 
What if archers are not op? What if the problem was/is and will always be the AI?
There are certain limitations with this too, the added computational load for properly 'leading' the aim, especially with up to 1k agents would be ridiculous.

AI also only ever have single formation archers/infantry groups (only cav split into the 2 wings) so there's only so many 'tactics' TW is capable of deploying.

There's no group/formation targeting anyways even if you split them up, you/AI can't tell one to hang back and focus on a split infantry group, have one at a tree line for flanking shots, etc...you can't even tell your infantry to fallback without turning their backs to the enemy!
I mean, that 'issue' with the party group sorting change with OOB, from what I gather is their reasoning for said change, that change should also make it easier for them to add this formation/group targeting to the AI?
 
There are certain limitations with this too, the added computational load for properly 'leading' the aim, especially with up to 1k agents would be ridiculous.

AI also only ever have single formation archers/infantry groups (only cav split into the 2 wings) so there's only so many 'tactics' TW is capable of deploying.

There's no group/formation targeting anyways even if you split them up, you/AI can't tell one to hang back and focus on a split infantry group, have one at a tree line for flanking shots, etc...you can't even tell your infantry to fallback without turning their backs to the enemy!
I mean, that 'issue' with the party group sorting change with OOB, from what I gather is their reasoning for said change, that change should also make it easier for them to add this formation/group targeting to the AI?
won´t argue on that. i am sure it´s not easy to do (if possible at all). and formation targeting? i would love to see that (no ironie) but even if possible i don´t think they would do it. TW tries to keep the fighting as casual as possible.
what i peviously forgot to mention was the speed bonus to damage, what adds another layer to the problem. balancing a game is really not easy
 
infantry essentially becomes obsolete
Infantry are there to perforate Cavalry. Cavalry are there to deny position to Archers, and to repel H.A. Ranged units are the meta; they have ranged weapons, of course they're 'strictly better.'

I happen to think this is correct, and the only imbalance is because H.A.'s don't have enough opportunity cost. Shameless plug which partially addresses this. I made this to make upper tiers more costly.
 
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