2nd Balance Patch: design insights + full changelog

[flashn00b]

Considering that all-archer teams can destroy pretty much anything even remotely resembling a reasonably balanced team composition in non-Captain modes, I think it might be worth bringing up the Super Armor suggestion that I posted a while back.

To those who are unfamiliar, Super Armor is a mechanic often found in fighting games where if a move has armor attached to it, the character will still take full damage but their attack animation will otherwise remain uninterrupted. I think the best example of this is Ike's Aether and Ganondorf's Warlock Punch from Super Smash Bros Ultimate. I think the best way to implement super armor in Bannerlord would be to do the following:

• All melee attacks from horseback cannot be interrupted by ranged attacks, with throwing spears and headshots being the sole exceptions. Preparing to swing or thrust (hold down the left mouse button) can still result in the player flinching if they take ranged weapon damage.
• Couchable Lance now has a "Super Armor" stat which indicate the number of ranged attacks it will take to force a stance break. This counter will slowly regenerate over time up to a maximum of the listed stat, with kills with any melee weapon restoring the counter by 0.4 (killing with the lance itself will restore an additional 0.3)

I think the outcome of adding super armor would be that players who insist on playing the game like a modern military shooter will find themselves having to actually play an infantry class if they don't wanna get run down by flinch-immune horsemen. Of course, I doubt we'll anything that discourages the spamming of an overpowered class cuz TaleWorlds seems to have this very specific vision in mind about how people play Bannerlord multiplayer, with that vision being "tl;dr modern shooter with medieval coat of paint. Also, one faction's clearly better at spamming archers than other factions"

 

[Horatius]

Considering that all-archer teams can destroy pretty much anything even remotely resembling a reasonably balanced team composition in non-Captain modes, I think it might be worth bringing up the Super Armor suggestion that I posted a while back.

Do they? Haven't noticed myself and don't see a reason why they would, archer is a great support class just like cav, as they should be, but full archer spam won't work in a balanced matchup.
Get a shield, get good and get friends. The amount of very good archers is rather low in the game, there are like 5 people who are a massive threat.

Also super armor is an awful idea and doesn't belong in the MB series, hitting your enemy earlier than they you is of massive importance. Even if it is only on horse back cav duels become 100% luck as timing becomes way less important.

Also let's buff cav!!! The actual class that could use some nerfs to some parts.

 

[flashn00b]

Do they? Haven't noticed myself and don't see a reason why they would, archer is a great support class just like cav, as they should be, but full archer spam won't work in a balanced matchup.
Get a shield, get good and get friends. The amount of very good archers is rather low in the game, there are like 5 people who are a massive threat.

I assume you haven't heard of the concept behind "accuracy in volume". An all-archer team doesn't really need to really need to land their shots perfectly. They just need to shoot enough arrows that you're guaranteed to hit something.

Also, about the "get a shield" advice, a shield won't do you much good if the arrow goes straight through it and hits you anyways. And trying to play cavalry to run down an archer really only succeeds in making yourself a bigger and easier target for the archer to hit. Only logical solution to fighting an archer is to be an archer yourself.

This is why i've been playing Warband in the past week now. Archers may still be overpowered but I can at least trust WB players to not spam an overpowered class a hell of a lot more than I can trust Bannerlord players.

 

[Einarcf]

Force archers to start moving and catch them off guard

 

[flashn00b]

Force archers to start moving and catch them off guard

Good luck doing that when an all archer team can stop you from moving. As i've mentioned earlier, shields won't do a player much good against archers if arrows can penetrate shields and riding a horse just turns you into a bigger target for archers to hit.

Having actual game mechanics to force archers to reconsider their class picks seems to be the only solution i can see. That way, archers can still be a counter to most infantry but can otherwise be countered by a unit that also has counters.

 

[Horatius]

Good luck doing that when an all archer team can stop you from moving. As i've mentioned earlier, shields won't do a player much good against archers if arrows can penetrate shields and riding a horse just turns you into a bigger target for archers to hit.

Having actual game mechanics to force archers to reconsider their class picks seems to be the only solution i can see. That way, archers can still be a counter to most infantry but can otherwise be countered by a unit that also has counters.

Shields stop arrows mostly just fine, if they don't maybe don't play on poor quality wifi. A cav and inf comp can easily pinch archers, honestly it's just you.

Edit: removed unnecessary flamebaiting.

Edit edit: <Explaining how I can't let things go>

Edit edit edit: If your post is edited by a moderator, don't keep pushing it. The next step is another edit (this one) and a warning.


Edit edit edit edit: No.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Super armor... That's all we need...

Thanks Horatius someone has to said it.

 

[XDaron]

is there going to be a patch for balancing unit parking in captain? or the plans changed when AVRC left? it hasn't been talked about for months now

 

[Einarcf]

Good luck doing that when an all archer team can stop you from moving. As i've mentioned earlier, shields won't do a player much good against archers if arrows can penetrate shields and riding a horse just turns you into a bigger target for archers to hit.

Having actual game mechanics to force archers to reconsider their class picks seems to be the only solution i can see. Thaty, archers can still be a counter to most infantry but can otherwise be countered by a unit that also has counters.

I agree pushing into a defended flag by 6 archers is hard (still not impossible imo). IIRC arrows can't penetrate shields unless it is a shield on the back. To counter shooting around shields, people need to move in unexpected ways. If you go in the same direction with the same speed, you risk getting foot-shot. Another thing people do; they stand still and face archer, bad idea. Pretty much every shield can be shot around, especially if the archer is clever, and employs terrain height difference to facilitate this. Some also forgot to use active blocking, they hold shield the same way. Shield+moving+active blocking+cover should be somewhat effective at the very least.

Archer is like the only main class that can be non-essential: Cav is always good, I think with recent inf buffs, not having any inf is a mistake. Archer-less teams are by far the most common out of the 3.

Sure, people claim 222 is so good. But its kinda all or nothing. Either it works great, or fails. People around here to have a tendency to remember only the times the 222 (2 c, 2 i, 2 a) worked.

So what are archer weaknesses? They are super slow, have mediocre/bad armor, no shields (shield perks are dubious imo). Weapons are pretty okay, might have gotten a bit relatively weaker. Like maces and axes got better and archers typically get swords, right?

Archers want you to attack them. If you attack them, you are fighthing closer to their spawn, giving them time to run to spawn/get reinforcments from respawning inf. Also because they have found good defensive areas. An archer that is moving cannot be picky with hiding spots. Archers that are moving will not be in a good firing concave.

Problem with skirmish. You need to take the 2 flags the archers are not covering. You then have to push the archers when they eventually have to move from their first flag. You have to attack all together. 6 inexperinced archers work together, because they can leverage pressure over long distances. Inf needs to be close and attack at the same time to work together. Inf need to coordinate. Your cav should rather be late than early imo. A cav that risks a 1v1 against aware archer is giving up a huge advantage. Cav excel (and is good at creating situations where that is possible) at killing unware targets.

Also, if you do not fight near their spawn, spawnkilling respawning archers get easier. I think archers are easier to spawnkill than inf.

I expect skirmishers with throwings and two handers with crush through to destroy archers in melee. S-key with these units and force archer to switch between melee and bow. All other inf should have a good matchup. Glaive archer is good here of course.

I also feel like all-inf/all-cav in public is more common than all-archer, but that is just a guess.

I know a fair bit of this assumes somewhat competent team mates, which is a big stretch. People will go solo against the 6 archers, cav gets greedy, you don't take the 2 flags first, etc. I'd much rather wait for better matchmaking and player base rather than solve all-archer teams sometimes destroying public.

 

[Horked]

Hello there!

This balance patch that went out as a hotfix today, is a continuation of this big balance patch last month. Since then the meta has changed quite a bit and also there was...

Awesome! Do you have any idea when we may see FF enabled on siege?

Edit: Right now I feel infantry weapons are somewhat balanced to the degree where I begin to think about what weapon to use vs what units enemy use the most currently, I feel all 3 weapon types has their pros and cons, just as it should be. Before, sword was king and its still the best all-around! But now, if I see the enemy mostly consist of armored/shield units, I now pick mace or axe without a doubt in my mind.
It can be fine tuned though, its rather raw right now but the difference is felt!

Edit 2: About the swings, I feel the damage you deal when hitting an enemy very early in the animation is too high. If this is intended, well too bad, Ill live with it But If I perform a left-swing normal attack with an enemy just right of my character (or visa versa), I usually deal damage as if I hit her normally, facing her. I feel this is unbalanced and unrealistic, the damage should be much lower, maybe not even stagger, just 10-15 damage.

Very raw! Should be adjustet to fit the different directions!

You shouldnt be rewarded for not facing accordingly IMO I exploit it myself actually, but theres a voice in the back of me skull that says its cheesy.

 

[Hax.]

After playing for a few days im no huge fan of that Update.

Armor feels incredibly useless, whether you choose light or heavy armor doesn't pay off in the slightest. you will die by 2 shots or hits. Especially heavy armor makes no sense because it doesn't absorb anything. Fighting outnumbered is almost impossible. you can literally bang on the mouse and watch yourself die, as no counterattack is possible due to dozens of stuns and delays. (See https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/delayed-attack-and-animation-bug.448292/page-2 )

Also footwork is useless, an enemy attack is not blocked but hits you with very low damage, especially against multiple enemies you get stuned and spammed to death by 1-7 dmg "hits" (which is complete bull****, what is the armor for if it doesn't work)

The archer buff was a bit of a bummer and promotes archer spam immensely (again) with the lack of FF it's again a joyful camp on one side and a frustrating chaos on the infantry side, which resolves a lot of group fights in a short time.

Maces are OP as **** and destroy everything and everyone in 1-2 hits. I can't understand why this was buffed in the first place.

Basically, after 2 years I still can't get used to the class system. It doesn't offer a good choice, it's not noob friendly, it doesn't offer any satisfying functionality, it doesn't give a long term goal, it doesn't offer excitement or variety, it's much more of a burden and keeps forcing you into roles and equipment that don't do anything and that you don't even want. it just sucks and has no place in game modes like siege.

 

[Horked]

Maces are OP as **** and destroy everything and everyone in 1-2 hits. I can't understand why this was buffed in the first place.

They seem to deal pretty much the same damage on cloth as on armor, but they are still slower and shorter than a sword and I believe swords still do more damage vs cloth than a mace do

 

[Varadin]

After playing for a few days im no huge fan of that Update.

Armor feels incredibly useless, whether you choose light or heavy armor doesn't pay off in the slightest. you will die by 2 shots or hits. Especially heavy armor makes no sense because it doesn't absorb anything. Fighting outnumbered is almost impossible. you can literally bang on the mouse and watch yourself die, as no counterattack is possible due to dozens of stuns and delays. (See https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/delayed-attack-and-animation-bug.448292/page-2 )

Also footwork is useless, an enemy attack is not blocked but hits you with very low damage, especially against multiple enemies you get stuned and spammed to death by 1-7 dmg "hits" (which is complete bull****, what is the armor for if it doesn't work)

The archer buff was a bit of a bummer and promotes archer spam immensely (again) with the lack of FF it's again a joyful camp on one side and a frustrating chaos on the infantry side, which resolves a lot of group fights in a short time.

Maces are OP as **** and destroy everything and everyone in 1-2 hits. I can't understand why this was buffed in the first place.

Basically, after 2 years I still can't get used to the class system. It doesn't offer a good choice, it's not noob friendly, it doesn't offer any satisfying functionality, it doesn't give a long term goal, it doesn't offer excitement or variety, it's much more of a burden and keeps forcing you into roles and equipment that don't do anything and that you don't even want. it just sucks and has no place in game modes like siege.

You brought some nonsense arguments which make no sense or basically never happen or can happen to a complete newcomer / noob.

You obviously have no idea how combat and melee works in this game . You are probably playing siege or TDM. No offense but you arent competent to talk about combat and footwork

 

[Alboin]

Maces are OP as **** and destroy everything and everyone in 1-2 hits. I can't understand why this was buffed in the first place.

The only thing that I can agree with. They should nerf maces, they oneshot even Wildling.

 

[DeathBG]

The only thing that I can agree with. They should nerf maces, they oneshot even Wildling.

I agree khuzait mace is OP. Battania mace is OP. But Vlandia mace is decent with 47 damage. They already nerf the axe last patch so nerfing the mace wll once again make it weak compared to other heavy infs. Also aserai mace is the only counter they have to fight the heavy infs from other factions. Nerfing maces on Vlandia and aserai will end up really bad for both factions and will ruin the current infantry balance. So you should think before crying about it on forums.

The stats of maces were barely changed. All the maces recieved a handling buff. And before they were very slow while now they are pretty quick. So reducing handling will make them very slow and useless. So best thing to be done is reduce khuzait mace from 62 to 50 and battanian mace from 56 to 50 dmg. They still remain fast and decent. Also aserai can get a small nerf from 53 to 50. If Devs touch the handling they will ruin all the maces once again. So please don't touch the HANDLING(or swing speed as well).

 

[Hax.]

You brought some nonsense arguments which make no sense or basically never happen or can happen to a complete newcomer / noob.

You obviously have no idea how combat and melee works in this game . You are probably playing siege or TDM. No offense but you arent competent to talk about combat and footwork

Actually i thought you were a competent and good player but get off your high horse, banging your ass on the keyboard and call it a post is not productive and embarrasses you at best.
I did not have the problems described above until now, only with the last patch this became noticeable and it sucks tremendously. Maybe others see it that way, or not. Im all up for critism how to improve or solve this new "feature". In any case, I find it a huge nonsense that a chain/plate armor suddenly gets snapped down by a scratch or fist bump even when you perfectly blocked the momentum of your opponents hit.

 

[Jesus_is-Lord]

Dear @NIN3,

I appreciate everything you have done for the game; I believe Bannerlord is the best game of all time, but I still think it can be improved.

The most important thing in combat is speed, and I believe that foot movement speed should be based only on weight similar to Warband

I heard a rumor that when Warband was in beta archers and cavalry classes did not have the movement penalties that they do have now, but because of player's complaints developers added in the speed penalty to the class so that archers could not kite infantry players. (I do not know why cavalry players also have a movement penalty, the only reason I can think of is that the game is trying to balance the classes by adding these movement penalties instead of balancing the equipment (including mounts) that these classes are using; in my opinion arrows shouldn't do as much damage to heavy armor and cavalry shouldn't have as much hp)

I think instead of having a permanent speed penalty on archers you can instead have a speed penalty on quivers/bows, this way players would have to drop their ranged equipment in order to run effectively (eliminating their kiting ability)

I would like to mention that. I do not think that adding differences in combat capabilities (the modifiers in the perk selection menu) is good. (This series has always been about physics-based combat, not special abilities which give you an unfair advantage like the damage modifier to mounts when you chose "cavalry breaker" which enables you to do more damage to mounts not for any reason other than this buff)

With proper balancing to archer's and cavalry's equipment the need for movement speed penalties will hopefully be negated so that all players will have the ability to fight fairly (also please let infantry/archers use mounts without the speed penalty and shoot bows without the accuracy penalty; I believe that allowing players to have a fair chance at using all equipment/mounts will lead to better gameplay by eliminating situations where a player cannot win due to having these penalties)

I know you are limited on what you can change in the game, but I do believe these changes will benefit most players.

Thank you for reading

 

[aLiaXXXanger]

I believe Bannerlord is the best game of all time

I totally agree with that. But, it seems to me that the reworking of the game mechanics you named should not be a priority for the developers until they take measures aimed at preserving and growing the gaming community of this wonderful game. We need to increase the variety of weapons (the characteristics of which can become direct, but an adequate replacement for unrealistic perks), game cards, playable classes (hello brigants and recruits?). You need steps to promote the game: advertising, expanding the list of adapted gaming platforms, official tournaments organized by developers, etc. etc.
What do you say to that, dear @NIN3, @Callum?

 

[Varadin]

Actually i thought you were a competent and good player but get off your high horse, banging your ass on the keyboard and call it a post is not productive and embarrasses you at best.
I did not have the problems described above until now, only with the last patch this became noticeable and it sucks tremendously. Maybe others see it that way, or not. Im all up for critism how to improve or solve this new "feature". In any case, I find it a huge nonsense that a chain/plate armor suddenly gets snapped down by a scratch or fist bump even when you perfectly blocked the momentum of your opponents hit.

But i am ....

 

[Terco_Viejo]

@NIN3
Happy New Year, I sincerely wish you all the best on a personal level .
---

On the professional side:
I was wondering if apart from all the balance stuff you mentioned, is on "Taleworlds meeting table" the problem of the swing arcs which OGL in particular and others have been talking about since the alpha/beta closed period. Are you guys going to overhaul them definitively and therefore modify the animations (extrapolable to SP as well) or is it definitely something you don't contemplate at this stage of the game?

Thanks in advance.