Feminism

[Grank]

You are basically saying "women here are backward and fine with it, they don't mind not fulfilling their potential".

I already said they can work if they want to. Any job. Women here go to college and have high profile office jobs just like in other countries. What I was saying was, having all these opportunities doesn't mean they don't want to get married, be housewives and have a family. I know in the west it's different because the economy is so competitive that having a family is such a burden, and you need both men and women to have a job. But it's different here. Getting married and making a family is still the standard route, and it's not that hard to achieve. Indonesians think that you need children to accompany you in your old days. A retirement home is not popular because a lot of people can't afford that. If they don't have children, their only options will be to die alone or be a burden to their siblings, which sucks. Hell, just look at Japan.

What a lot of women find is, once they have children, they tend to prefer to quit their jobs to take care of the kids. Because it's very difficult to manage both at the same time, and people generally don't enjoy working (I know I don't). Of course, there's a lot of women who still go to work and have their parents take care of their children. This is how it usually goes. Women do the standard education route up to graduating with a bachelor degree in their early twenties. They will then work for a few years. Once they're around 25 they will start thinking about marriage and where to go next with their career or education. Choosing both is as common as stopping study/work. Not getting married is the rare option.

I don't know why you assume it's because of some kind of oppression. Fact of the matter is, a lot of people simply don't want to get higher education or work hard. Doesn't matter if you're a woman or a man. In fact, women have a way out by being a house wife, while men don't have a choice. When I ask my friends if they want to continue their education, most of them answer with "Nah I don't wanna." What can I say to that? Insult them for not fulfilling their potential?

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Women in the west liked being housewives in the 50s too. Until they figured out they didn't need to and could aspire to more fulfilling roles and a greater variety of roles that are suited to their personal capabilities and motivations.
You are basically saying "women here are backward and fine with it, they don't mind not fulfilling their potential". It's telling that you are fine with it, of course you don't want this to change and can rationalize it as good for them. Your prime concern was whether they are healthy for childbirth, and that's just like discussing breeding of cattle.

Women in the west didn't just "figure out" that they didn't need to be housewives. They were forced into the workplace by a rising cost of living and stagnant wages. Sure there were soft restrictions on what work women could do, but there was a 30-40 year window between that and the virtual extinction of housewives in the neoliberal era when the cost of living caught up to wages.

Right now in the UK for example you physically cannot raise a child on one entry-level job. There are plenty of women who actually want to be housewives, but can't. I know one woman out of dozens in my peergroup who is a non-working mother, and she basically gets supported by her entire family. You can say that this is part of a subconscious societal pressure or whatever, but even the most radical feminists have had to accept that a millenia-old tradition doesn't just vanish, and some women genuinely want to be in that position. "fulfilling their potential" isn't just what you as a western liberal personally want it to be.

 

[Mad Vader]

So how many of you had gone to protest in front of your local Iranian embassy?

 

[NPC99]

So how many of you had gone to protest in front of your local Iranian embassy?

That's women's work, I'm too busy washing the dishes.

 

[Mad Vader]

That's women's work, I'm too busy washing the dishes.

Nice one.
But if you are single you need to do both.

 

[Adorno]

Those embassy protests in other countries are weird.
I suppose they send a statement and I'm just making up excuses for being passive.

 

[NPC99]

Those embassy protests in other countries are weird.
I suppose they send a statement and I'm just making up excuses for being passive.

There are some embassies I'd avoid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher diplomatic immunity can be abused.

 

[Grank]

So how many of you had gone to protest in front of your local Iranian embassy?

Meh I don't like protests in general. They don't seem productive. Go have a discussion, debate, murder or a rebellion if you have to. You can even write something good and have the media cover it if you don't want to deal with the gov directly. Just standing around holding signs seems like a waste of time.

 

[Adorno]

Maybe not murder, though, monsieur citoyen. But large protests can lead to changes, even regime changes.
"Gatherings" at embassies seem a little futile to me. Usually (not always!) it's just a bunch of hardcore idealists who enjoy the attention.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Embassy protests are ridiculous. I generally think it's cringe for people to get that invested in social issues from a country and culture that is otherwise completely alien to them. I actually know a lot of iranians very well and can speak Persian semi conversationally, but i would die of cringe before going to one of those embassy protests. It's just none of my business.

It's also pretty pathetic how quickly "leftists" and other libtards instantly unite with the military, the foreign policy spooks and the PR wings of corporations whenever there's some confrontation with a non-western state. They just end up being footsoldiers for diplomatic posturing and ambassador expulsions.

 

[Mad Vader]

Comrade Hinds, the ally of oppressive regimes everywhere. Because if you don't speak the language, you can't understand what's going on in other countries and there's no way to know.
The chance that your protests may be supported by your government is also completely unacceptable, because then you look like government stooge and that's far worse than protesting for human rights. Have to keep your street Twitter rep intact!

Maybe not murder, though, monsieur citoyen. But large protests can lead to changes, even regime changes.

You are talking to a conservative authoritarian who would be more motivated to join anti-progressive counter-protests. They don't really do democracy in Indonesia.

"Gatherings" at embassies seem a little futile to me. Usually (not always!) it's just a bunch of hardcore idealists who enjoy the attention.

The attention is the point, namely the national press coverage. Every bit helps and you have a nice day out doing what you believe in with people who are definitely not bootlickers. While I disdain activism because of its intrinsic one-sidedness and frequent use of manipulative propaganda, these protesters are doing good work and we should at least recognize that.

 

[Grank]

would be more motivated to join anti-progressive counter-protests.

Nah. As I've said I hate protests in general. If I wanted to do something for my country I'd use my time studying so that I can be someone important in the future, and actually have the power and skills to do something. I have the patience. It'd be a mistake to let ignorant youths be in charge of important decisions.

I don't understand your obsession with American political labels, frankly speaking. You called me a conservative authoritarian, but my religious values are far from mainstream and I loathe China. Politics in Indonesia is different from in the US. We don't have these two clearly-separated sides. We have the muslim extremists vs normal people, for example. These aren't really conservative vs liberalism, or authoritarian vs democracy, or left vs right. We don't see them as a political movement. We see them as terrorists.

 

[NPC99]

these protesters are doing good work and we should at least recognize that.

While I sympathise with them, I believe they’re wasting their time. Iran is already a sanctioned and shunned regime that ignores what foreign governments/protestors think, say or do. I’m more worried for the 2,000 examples that will soon be made in Iranian courts to crush further protest within that country. Their government is committed to a rigid dogma of male supremacy and is fully prepared to use its military and courts to impose that on any dissidents, however populous. IMO a revolt would fail ATM, resulting in even more dead. The only hope I can see, is that those at the top can’t live forever and future generations might evolve a more equitable regime. Which, is sadly too late for those Iranian women living now.

 

[Mad Vader]

I don't understand your obsession with American political labels, frankly speaking. You called me a conservative authoritarian, but my religious values are far from mainstream and I loathe China. Politics in Indonesia is different from in the US. We don't have these two clearly-separated sides.

There's nothing specifically American about conservative and authoritarian, those words have universal meanings. For example, you are conservative because you reject social change and authoritarian because you believe people need strong rulers. When you are against any kind of protests, you are being both.
If most people in Indonesia are conservative and authoritarian, that doesn't mean you are somehow progressive in the context of your society, because there are religious fundamentalists who are ultra-conservative. Your attitude towards China is probably based on Indonesian sentiment about China as a threat, rather than rejection of authoritarian regimes. I bet you like the style of Putin, Bolsonaro and/or Trump, if not everything they do.

So being labeled a conservative authoritarian is not really a value judgment in itself. It's just worse than Hitler.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

There's nothing specifically American about conservative and authoritarian, those words have universal meanings.

Conservative is just about the most relative term in politics, what the hell are you talking about. Conservatives from different cultures have practically nothing in common, unless you believe all cultures are the same, and a chinese conservative communist would get along just fine with an american libertarian.

Being against certain kinds of protests doesnt automatically make you anti-liberal (which is really what authoritarian means). Despite what liberalism often likes to claim, nobody is arbitrarily and universally in favour of all kinds of protest and expression. Are you fine with neo-nazis or antivaxxers protesting in the centre of your town? What about parades to honour the death of a mass murderer?

On the flipside nobody is authoritarian out of principle. Even a Nietzschean like Adolf Hitler didnt just want to use power for its own sake, he had a specific political project that required the use of force. Calling grank an authoritarian and then linking him to everyone in history who has ever used state power to achieve political ends is about as meaningful as calling him a thug.

 

[Grank]

you reject social change

Says who? I'm up for social change. I just think it's best done slowly and naturally. Rushed change often results in disaster. You need a test of time to see what consequence a social change will actually bring. If you force it onto a large population at once, when an unforeseen consequence sprouts up, the damage will be big, and a rushed change means it needs to be intense, else it won't get attention. That's just its nature. There's no testing the waters with it. It needs to be intense, forceful, and quick. Just look at many modern movements like feminism and LGBT. They're really obnoxious and forced. In the western world these movements are already causing frictions and disasters because these ideas are forced into people's mouths like an oppressive regime.

Truth of the matter is, it takes decades to properly change a society for the better. Just think how long does it take to educate people. From childhood to maturity alone it takes 20 years. Then you need another 10 to see whether the new education actually makes their lives better or not. This is not even counting the time it takes to educate the educators like parents and teachers. Not counting any errors found and revisions made to the idea, and how long it would take to implement the new revisions. Don't think advancing a humanity is an easy job. You need a ton of work and patience to do it.

authoritarian because you believe people need strong rulers

Strong and wise. A weak wise ruler won't be able to implement his ideas. A strong unwise ruler will lead his people to disaster. In case you haven't noticed, I'm an advocate of balance. Any extremism to any direction will lead to disaster. You need to constantly check where you're at, and adjust accordingly.

You might say "But we don't need rulers" but you're wrong. It's impractical to involve everyone in every single decision making within a society. You need someone to do that for you. There's also the undeniable fact that people have different level of skills. It's not because some people are genetically inferior or anything like that. Some people just prefer to use their time studying things other than society and government. If people who don't know jack about governing make decisions, it will be disaster. Just look at China. That's what happens when idiots take charge of a country. Then should everyone learn about government? No. Forcing people to learn like that IS oppression. People should be free to decide what they want to learn and what role they want to fill in life. If they want to spend their entire life learning e-sport and jerking off to anime, they're free to do so. Doesn't mean they should be in charge of country decisions.

Hell. How about babies? Should we let them decide when and what they want to eat? No. We make those decisions for them because they don't know better.

Your attitude towards China is probably based on Indonesian sentiment about China as a threat

Nope. Wrong again. Most Indonesians admire China for being a strong and rich Asian country, and because China is an enemy of the US. Indonesians hate the US because of middle east, because we're a Muslim majority. They don't know China's wealth is a lie. I actually got my attitude by following western sources on China.

I bet you like the style of Putin, Bolsonaro and/or Trump, if not everything they do.

You owe me $50 then. Just gift me Senran Kagura Peachy Ball Massage Party (I made it up but watch it be real) on Steam. I don't like Putin or Trump and I don't know who Bolsonaro is. Trump might have balls, but he lacks grace.

 

[Antonis]

 

[eddiemccandless]

"Forced change" on society is not a thing. Society is changing fast because technology is changing fast. And there's not a thing that you, I or anyone else can do to prevent that. All we can do is do our best to adapt, whatever that might mean.

 

[Grank]

What are you talking about? People are forcing certain ideas onto others as far as making new laws to do it. If you get punished for disagreeing, that means you're forces to agree. It's not about education and making people change their minds. It's about punishment and censorship these days. Technology only helps that process.

 

[Mad Vader]

@Grank Your responses yesterday unironically confirm your conservative and authoritarian leanings. Just embrace who you are. Don't fight it like you fight the libtards from the degenerate West.