SP - General Spear Concerns and Challenge for Developers

[Jezecek02]

Greetings Mount & Blade: Bannerlord community,

I’d like to discuss concerns about spears in the game, touching upon issues such as slow attack speed, bouncing off when too close, the difficulty of facing multiple opponents, and the apparent imbalance compared to two-handed axes and swingable polearms. These issues might affect the game’s realism and balance.

Specific Concerns:

1. Attack Speed and Blocking: The animation for spear attacks feels slower than expected, affecting both effectiveness and the frequency of being blocked, especially against shields.
2. Bouncing Off: Spears tend to bounce off when enemies get too close, rather than dealing damage. A sharp spearhead should cause some harm in such situations.
3. Facing Multiple Opponents: Spear users struggle when handling multiple enemies, leading to overwhelming situations.
4. Imbalance Compared to Other Weapons: Two-handed axes and swingable polearms appear to have a significant advantage, being both powerful and relatively fast. Balancing these weapons could contribute to a more diverse and enjoyable gameplay experience.

Suggested Challenge:

I propose a challenge to the developers: Win practice fights at least five times in each culture’s arenas using a spear. If this proves challenging, adjustments may be needed to bring spears more in line with other weapons.

Closing Note:

I deeply appreciate Mount & Blade: Bannerlord as a unique and captivating gaming experience. Addressing these concerns can contribute to making the game even more exceptional. Let’s collaborate to ensure this outstanding game reaches its full potential.

Thank you for your attention and if someone from the developer team reads this, thank you for your dedication for improving this fantastic game.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

I think spears would be infinitely better if you could swing with them, even for diminished damage, since a big part of what holds them back is the limited attack directions, slowness, and ineffectuality at close range. A little swing (not a wide 180 degree arc, more like a 90 degree cone) would probably go a long way.

Maybe left/right directional inputs could pulling back the spear so the offensive length is shorter, at least, since they're often too long to be competitive with most other weapons on foot.

On horseback, they're pretty solid for their range and potential power when velocity is factored in, but it's on foot where they're still pretty tough to use semi-well compared to using a one-hander and shield or two-hander without a shield.

 

[Jezecek02]

I think spears would be infinitely better if you could swing with them, even for diminished damage, since a big part of what holds them back is the limited attack directions, slowness, and ineffectuality at close range. A little swing (not a wide 180 degree arc, more like a 90 degree cone) would probably go a long way.

Maybe left/right directional inputs could pulling back the spear so the offensive length is shorter, at least, since they're often too long to be competitive with most other weapons on foot.

On horseback, they're pretty solid for their range and potential power when velocity is factored in, but it's on foot where they're still pretty tough to use semi-well compared to using a one-hander and shield or two-hander without a shield.

Yeah, I agree with you that spears are also limited in their attack directions. I really like your idea of pulling the spear back and shortening it to make it usable when foes get too close because, as it stands, the spear just bounces off.

I also appreciate your concept of swinging with them since some spears (or at least some of their variations) were historically used for both thrusting and swinging attacks.

Regarding swingable spearheads in the game, there are some, right? I’m particularly curious about the menavlioton, which, to be honest, really confuses me. In-game, it seems to be used more like a bill or glaive, but wasn’t it originally a long, heavy spear (or early pike)?

I should also specify that I meant using the spear on foot because, on horseback, it’s honestly my go-to weapon.

Thanks for the great reply, It’s my first post on here, so I’m glad, that someone had taken their time to read it and add on my concern.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

Happy to hear you like my reply; I'm kinda new around here since I really made an account to check the news since I got into this game this time last year on PS4 and, well, it was a mess but it seems mostly cleaned up with the latest update. A lot of fun despite the mess; put several hundred hours into one playthrough that ended in unification, after all.

I should have said "especially with diminished range," because I could imagine a simple rotation of swiping left, right, thrusting, and retracting the spear when the enemy gets close being within the realm of the game's system to handle. There is precedent for adjusting weapon functionality (like, with javelins, going from throwing mode to melee mode) and that could be applied to spears as well.

I could easily imagine most of the spears in the game being useful as slashing weapons since their blades are long and broad enough to be serviceable. Of course, it makes sense IRL to sweep if you miss a thrust (for example) and, in game, it'd make spearmen (NPCs) especially useful since they could pack together and create a cone of death in front of them just with repeat swipes without knocking into each other.

Spears have improved in Bannerlord compared to Warband--it's why I use them all the time on horseback--but rarely on foot if I can help it since it's clunky, limited in attack angles (smarter A.I. means this weakness is emphasized), and requires a bit of "thrust towards the feet and than swipe up" in a weird way to consistently hit someone in front of you (or shield bash/kick, a player-only mechanic that'd probably help NPCs quite a bit).

The simplest improvement might be to just raise the attack speeds across the board for spears so that you and NPCs can compensate with sheer repetition where you lack in effective alternative attack options.

 

[Jezecek02]

Happy to hear you like my reply; I'm kinda new around here since I really made an account to check the news since I got into this game this time last year on PS4 and, well, it was a mess but it seems mostly cleaned up with the latest update. A lot of fun despite the mess; put several hundred hours into one playthrough that ended in unification, after all.

I should have said "especially with diminished range," because I could imagine a simple rotation of swiping left, right, thrusting, and retracting the spear when the enemy gets close being within the realm of the game's system to handle. There is precedent for adjusting weapon functionality (like, with javelins, going from throwing mode to melee mode) and that could be applied to spears as well.

I could easily imagine most of the spears in the game being useful as slashing weapons since their blades are long and broad enough to be serviceable. Of course, it makes sense IRL to sweep if you miss a thrust (for example) and, in game, it'd make spearmen (NPCs) especially useful since they could pack together and create a cone of death in front of them just with repeat swipes without knocking into each other.

Spears have improved in Bannerlord compared to Warband--it's why I use them all the time on horseback--but rarely on foot if I can help it since it's clunky, limited in attack angles (smarter A.I. means this weakness is emphasized), and requires a bit of "thrust towards the feet and than swipe up" in a weird way to consistently hit someone in front of you (or shield bash/kick, a player-only mechanic that'd probably help NPCs quite a bit).

The simplest improvement might be to just raise the attack speeds across the board for spears so that you and NPCs can compensate with sheer repetition where you lack in effective alternative attack options

Agreed, the simplest way to address this problem would be to increase the attack speed or handling of spears. In my opinion, another effective approach would be to remove the bouncing mechanic, or as you mentioned, implement the idea of pulling the spear back. The speed of thrusting was what made spearmen formidable warriors on the battlefield. It was the reason charging at them was risky – they could swiftly change their attack direction, making it difficult to approach.

Historically, the spear wouldn’t bounce off harmlessly; it would either penetrate or push back its foe. Even against opponents with shields, a skilled spearmen, especially if holding the spear in two hands, could still be a formidable force. In formations, spears seem ineffective, and my testing indicates that troops with spears are easily overwhelmed by enemies wielding one-handed weapons. It’s confusing why spears, unlike two-handed axes and shock polearms, feel slow, get blocked easily, and deal less damage.

I also appreciate your suggestion about giving spears more attack options. The idea of switching between attacks, similar to javelins, is intriguing. However, I wonder if this might become too complex, especially considering the various polearms in the game. Some spears already have the ability to brace, thrust, and throw (like pilum). Would you propose giving this ability to specific spears or spear heads, or perhaps a combination?

I guess, that there is a mod adresing this issues, but just like you, I’m also playing on console.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

You know, I'm pretty sure the spears the Menavlions (spelling?) use involves overhead swinging...

If I were to implement a simple change, as if this were Morrowind and I had its Construction Set, I'd just speed up their animations to be on par with swords and allow them to be swung. Essentially, they'd be kinda like weaker two-handers and the particular ones I'd give decent (not great) swing damage to would be ones with a decently long blade as opposed to a little stubble point. In other words, nearly all of them with the exception of javelins. Even the blunt of the shaft makes for an effective weapon so I'd split the difference and just have pikes be akin to weaker swords when swung (but about as fast) while Noble Cavalry Lance might have 30-something (to its 39 Pierce) since the blade is as long as a normal sword's and a good deal broader. I'm sure it'd have a nasty cleave.

My only concern would be spears making quicker one-handers obsolete, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be since the bounce-off would still be a thing and thus spears would be at their element as long as NPCs keep stabbing at their enemy's direction. Once distance is closed, perhaps that's where quicker one-handers can shine since all the spear guy could do is cleave downwards since left/right would likely smack friendlies while thrusting would be ineffective due to distance. EDIT: A simple way to separate heavier spears from lighter ones, besides attack speed, would be swinging damage since a thicker/metal shaft would logically be far more powerful than a thinner/wooden shaft.

 

[Jezecek02]

Oh man, I totally forgot about the effectiveness of one-handed weapons! Your ideas make sense, especially the part about swinging, considering how effective staffs were. I’m also pretty sure there was a tactic where a pike formation could be broken by great-swords, as their blades pushed the pikes to the sides, creating a gap. Fighters with shorter weapons would then jump in and engage the pikemen in close melee combat, forcing them to draw their secondary weapons.

However, I still believe that spear thrusts should have some effectiveness when a foe gets too close, perhaps knocking them back with reduced damage? It could be within a range where one-handed weapons remain relevant (for instance to the half of the polearm) avoiding obsolescence. Maintaining the bounce-off mechanic, as you mentioned, would be a good balance.

I really appreciate your ideas! They are well-thought-out and make a lot of sense.

 

[Totalgarbage]

I think the devs fixing or improving on the 1st and especially the 2nd concern would be great. If they did more (except for my 3rd point), it would be overkill imo. I'm saying this because I hate using spears in mods like RBM where they are too overpowered and armor stops mattering and you can kill all enemies in medium range extremely fast, nearly risk-free. In singleplayer only, I think that:

- All stabs should deal damage regardless of how close the enemy is to your character (or whoever is attacking with the spear), but the damage should fall-off according to the handling and the distance from the "damage sweet spot".

- All stabs should be a bit faster (I don't know what the specific increase should be though).

- Couched polearms should have a higher default chance of staying couched after an attack, and the "skewer" perk in the polearms skill tree should also affect braceable polearms and greatly increase this amount to something like 75-80% likely to keep the polearm couched/braced after an attack.

 

[Jezecek02]

I think the devs fixing or improving on the 1st and especially the 2nd concern would be great. If they did more (except for my 3rd point), it would be overkill imo. I'm saying this because I hate using spears in mods like RBM where they are too overpowered and armor stops mattering and you can kill all enemies in medium range extremely fast, nearly risk-free. In singleplayer only, I think that:

- All stabs should deal damage regardless of how close the enemy is to your character (or whoever is attacking with the spear), but the damage should fall-off according to the handling and the distance from the "damage sweet spot".

- All stabs should be a bit faster (I don't know what the specific increase should be though).

- Couched polearms should have a higher default chance of staying couched after an attack, and the "skewer" perk in the polearms skill tree should also affect braceable polearms and greatly increase this amount to something like 75-80% likely to keep the polearm couched/braced after an attack.

Yes, I believe that increasing the speed of thrusting damage is crucial for making spears (and pikes) more viable on the battlefield.

However, speed alone might not be enough. I also think that spears suffer from a limited range of damage, especially when your foe gets too close. To address this, I propose reducing the bouncing-off mechanic. The damage of the thrust could decrease as the opponent gets closer, but the knockback should increase, pushing the enemy back to the optimal damage range and allowing for the retraction of the weapon. The thrust should be fast enough to enable an immediate follow-up attack, giving skilled players an advantage. Yet, if the opponent gets too close, the polearm should still bounce off, prompting a switch to a secondary weapon. Notably, a high-tier troop should be able to react to that counter-attack and successfully block in time.

I also appreciate the idea of being able to swing with the spear, slash with the spearhead, or use the staff for a reduced damage. However, I’m unsure if this might make things too complicated.

Thank you for responding to my post. Your ideas are good and very much appreciated, especialy your third point.

 

[Snorri]

Spears should also have 4 angles of attack, becouse why not, but I know that's a a dream that will not come true.

 

[Piconi]

Will bring this up, thanks all!

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

The main danger in buffing Spears is that it indirectly nerfs everything else. I'm inclined to put, as a goal, that Spears and Swinging Polearms should be to polearms what Swords and Axes are to one-and-two-handers but, globally, weaker and slower so that they don't obviate them.

Spears ought to have more offensive options so that they aren't useless (especially for NPCs) in close range while Swinging Polearms are arguably OP and thus shouldn't be buffed by comparison. I think the simplest change would be to allow them to be swung for damage proportionate to ~75% of their current Thrust values so that they aren't useless up close but aren't so strong that you never have a reason to use a non-Spear One/Two-Hander.

For example, on the high end, a Noble Cavalry Lance might deal 30 Cut damage when swung which wouldn't be much compared to using a Broad Ild (72 Cut), and practically nothing compared to a two-handed sword, but would allow the user to defend themselves while stranded on foot and unable to get onto a horse. At the very least, being able to swing while two-handing the spear/lance would make a world of difference in not only PC performance but NPCs as well.

I don't think it's a good idea for Spears (even heavy Swinging Polearms weapons such as Rhompaias and Glaives) to have a guaranteed push on hit even if the enemy is blocking since it'd create the opposite problem where they make other weapons generally subpar and obsolete against anyone with a Spear. Even if Spears did very low damage and were slow as heck, they'd still dominate if there was guaranteed pushback.

Currently, I hypothesize the best way to use Spears on foot is to be as lightly armored as possible and have high Athletics to maximize movement speed so you can backpedal and repeatedly stab at enemies in the hopes they'll drop their guards and let you hit them. That's not ideal but I think being able to swing downwards and left/right (at least while two-handing) would great mitigate the issues Spearmen have while respecting One-Handers with Shields as ideal for closing distances and Two-Handers for making mincemeat at close range.

It's not a bad outcome if the optimal melee character involves alternating between a Spear and either a One-Hander and Shield or a Two-Hander when tightly-packed.

 

[Totalgarbage]

Will bring this up, thanks all!

Could you also bring up nerfing the damage of the glaive and heavy glaive a bit. I love using them. don't get me wrong, but the glaives are so op that they make the Khan's Guard the best melee cavalry (or maybe the 2nd-3rd best) when told to stop shooting and the best infantry in the game when dismounted and told to stop shooting. I love the KG but they're wayyy overtuned, mostly because of the glaive.

 

[JunKeteer]

Pretty sure this has been brought up 1000x times.
If overhead swings with 2-handers do pass through damage, why can't we do a similar mechanic with spear thrusts? All have an inherent push-back to it? Damage regardless the speed factor/stage of the animation? Faster thrust animation vs other attacks (to compensate for only having 2 attack options)?

Swing damage of polearms is still factored too weird. It's ridiculously OP, even that broad-blade low-tier spear one; not to mention the high tier glaives, menavlion, bill hook, etc...

Tournaments, if I get the spear/shield combo; the first thing to do is pick up another weapon. I'm not entertaining a spear/shield vs spear/shield fight (let alone vs someone that doesn't have the misfortune of a spear). Watching 2 AI go at it with those really shows how bad they are.

 

[Jezecek02]

Will bring this up, thanks all!

Thanks for reading this post and conversation—I’m honored.

The common consensus appears to be that spears (and thrusting animations in general) are too slow. Currently, enemies can get close without taking damage, blocking every thrust.

I also suggest that spears should deal some damage even if the enemy gets too close. Perhaps reducing the bounce-off mechanic slightly could allow for striking a foe as they approach for reduced damage. Alternatively, removing the bounce-off but reducing thrust damage as the foe gets closer might be an option, ensuring spears remain viable without making one-handed weapons obsolete.

Adding more attack angles and sides could enhance combat diversity. Stabbing from the side or bashing/slashing from different angles would add tactical depth. While the idea of swinging with spears is appealing, its implementation might be uncertain.

Improving AI proficiency with thrusting weapons is crucial, as currently, outcomes seem one-sided when a spear faces off against a sword, for example.

I wouldn’t alter the push-back mechanic significantly to avoid potential overpowered situations.

As it stands, thrusting weapons, especially spears and pikes, feel somewhat ineffective in combat and duels. In an arena scenario with just an arming sword against opponents with a bill and a spear, fear and caution should be equal for both.

Thanks again for taking the time to engage in this thread. Please continue enhancing this great game, and I wish you and everyone involved a happy new year.

 

[Yoshioki Ouchi]

In an arena scenario with just an arming sword against opponents with a bill and a spear, fear and caution should be equal for both.

Billy Rhompaia the Glaive Falxman elicits fear whenever I see him lol. While it's true regular/thrusting spears are bad on foot against other enemies on foot (especially when not supported), swinging polearms are super strong and make it possible for even a level 1 no-stat beginner character to 2-shot just about anybody who isn't wearing Super Grand Imperial Cataphact armor (they need to be hit 3 times in that situation, lol).

Maybe a speed boost isn't such a bad idea (for thrusts in general and spears in particular) but watching the Realistic Battle Mod's spears, with their speed boosts, makes them the other extreme where they're so OP I can't imagine anybody using anything else without it becoming a self-imposed challenge.

So, in other words, a small boost in speed might be empowering enough without obviating the value of one and two-handers.