I was referring to the sex of the person. The person was of course addresses as woman/she.
TaleWorlds News: New News Necessary for the OT Neophytes
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Wow.
Jokes aside, a couple of points:
a) I might be wrong and did a complete misjudge of character, but folks in this discussion don't really look like open fascists to me. Certainly not adorno, kurczak etc. Again, I might be wrong. But fascism is a very, very specific term(with ofc, negative colours and past), which gets flung around way too easily nowadays.
b) Somehow, I don't see how the proper response to a cynical and sarcastic individual is a cynical and sarcastic one it tone.
c) I'll be the last person to defend the mods here, but you have to admit they do tend to jump to the slightest hint of real flaming, insult or racist/sexist behaviour. People got muted because they said nibba, not even the n-word. People got warned for jokes slightly not proper involving genders (I know, because I have a board and in the old forum, I could see the Warnings etc.). Allowing sexual discrimination for years sounds a bit of a stretch, to say the least.
d) We could have a proper, educational discussion (I'd be up for it, in all honesty), but people on all sides tend to ridicule, retort and stick to words instead of meaning in every serious discussion I've had here, more or less. Myself included, of course. I know you do so, even in this instance and others. So, it seems logical to me that since **** get flung from all sides, there's really not one specific party to blaim. Saying, "I told ya many times but you don't listen", while behaving aggressively in all those aforementioned times, does seem a bit holier-than-thou attitude, eh?
That strange moment when Darth Vader tries to be the voice of reason
Abraxium
Hoooly ****, Antoine and Evelyn has the worst approach for this type of issue. I 90% agree with what you're saying but you have to pick your fights, not everyone needs to be argued with
Why are you using citation marks if you're not quoting him verbatim? He made an initial statement that there was no correlation between biological sex and gender, but then claimed irony over then claimed correlation
From the sound of it, Evv's past seeing any subset of the conversations as a viable "Pick," and, as such, is veering toward the "Throttle to full and let's leave a dent!" method of discourse.
I haven't seen Evv post anything but a monomolecular edge for years.
Antonis:
A) The 'fascist' comment was about someone very specific, who isn't involved in this discussion. If you would read my post again, you would note that I said that it was somebody in the mod team. The fact that such a person became a moderator in the first place absolutely shakes my faith in the integrity of this forum
B) It absolutely is, given the futility of the situation. Hyp is not quite 100% correct, but largely accurate in his reading of the way I've parsed this discussion.
C) It makes sense that you're blind to something that doesn't affect you personally. Having endured this for, again, years... Yeah. No. Brutus especially was very keen on ignoring absolutely anything to do with this subject. You could throw around actual pejorative slurs without any retribution. Trans people are an invisible demographic to mods. Mods don't care about trans people, never have, and until I see some definitive proof that this has changed, I don't think they ever will. But it's okay, they're a minority anyways, may as well ignore them, right? Speaking up about this situation actually resulted in me being threatened with retribution by somebody who is now a TaleWorlds employee, but I'd rather not get into that.
D) See my initial post about the futility of this situation. I've tried to educate about the subject ad nauseam. At best, nobody cares. At worst, it becomes a massive flame war. Further, it is not the role of the oppressed to educate the oppressors on the nature of their oppression. To believe that there is no wrong in the world unless somebody exhaustively details how you're wronging them is entitlement, purely. Why should somebody who has the benefit of privilege acknowledge mistreatment of somebody else when they don't have to? Societally, the majority will believe they're in the right, and that's sufficient anodyne for them to create an impermeable layer of cognitive dissonance.
Addendum: This community is and always has been very transphobic. Ignorant at best, malicious at worst, and there has been lots of both. Especially without voices of reason such as Feragorn. If you need proof of that, one need look no further than the way Ath was treated back in the day.
This is missing the point entirely. If you say things like this and you think you respect trans people, you don't. Now I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose, but you absolutely are being completely disrespectful, stopping just short of blatant malice.
Abraxium: If you think this isn't a picked fight, you don't know the sort of person I am. This is a very picked battle.
Hyp: It might not result in anything, no, but I'm sure as hell not going to let people get comfortable with being set in their ways when those ways are actively toxic to an entire group of people. Why should I not speak up against this, lest I be required to spend yet more hours of my life on trying to 'educate' people who don't care at best and are hostile at worst? They have a right to know they're wrong, perhaps, but at the same time I'm not going to be held prisoner and forced to endure unending sealioning or actually being downright insulted while trying to explain it to them, as has historically always happened. Forgive me if I seem out of sorts and despairing. I know full well that this is a losing battle in this community.
Vermillion: Okay boomer.
A) The 'fascist' comment was about someone very specific, who isn't involved in this discussion. If you would read my post again, you would note that I said that it was somebody in the mod team. The fact that such a person became a moderator in the first place absolutely shakes my faith in the integrity of this forum
B) It absolutely is, given the futility of the situation. Hyp is not quite 100% correct, but largely accurate in his reading of the way I've parsed this discussion.
C) It makes sense that you're blind to something that doesn't affect you personally. Having endured this for, again, years... Yeah. No. Brutus especially was very keen on ignoring absolutely anything to do with this subject. You could throw around actual pejorative slurs without any retribution. Trans people are an invisible demographic to mods. Mods don't care about trans people, never have, and until I see some definitive proof that this has changed, I don't think they ever will. But it's okay, they're a minority anyways, may as well ignore them, right? Speaking up about this situation actually resulted in me being threatened with retribution by somebody who is now a TaleWorlds employee, but I'd rather not get into that.
D) See my initial post about the futility of this situation. I've tried to educate about the subject ad nauseam. At best, nobody cares. At worst, it becomes a massive flame war. Further, it is not the role of the oppressed to educate the oppressors on the nature of their oppression. To believe that there is no wrong in the world unless somebody exhaustively details how you're wronging them is entitlement, purely. Why should somebody who has the benefit of privilege acknowledge mistreatment of somebody else when they don't have to? Societally, the majority will believe they're in the right, and that's sufficient anodyne for them to create an impermeable layer of cognitive dissonance.
Addendum: This community is and always has been very transphobic. Ignorant at best, malicious at worst, and there has been lots of both. Especially without voices of reason such as Feragorn. If you need proof of that, one need look no further than the way Ath was treated back in the day.
This is missing the point entirely. If you say things like this and you think you respect trans people, you don't. Now I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose, but you absolutely are being completely disrespectful, stopping just short of blatant malice.
Abraxium: If you think this isn't a picked fight, you don't know the sort of person I am. This is a very picked battle.
Hyp: It might not result in anything, no, but I'm sure as hell not going to let people get comfortable with being set in their ways when those ways are actively toxic to an entire group of people. Why should I not speak up against this, lest I be required to spend yet more hours of my life on trying to 'educate' people who don't care at best and are hostile at worst? They have a right to know they're wrong, perhaps, but at the same time I'm not going to be held prisoner and forced to endure unending sealioning or actually being downright insulted while trying to explain it to them, as has historically always happened. Forgive me if I seem out of sorts and despairing. I know full well that this is a losing battle in this community.
Vermillion: Okay boomer.
On the contrary, I've never seen someone gets so combative and passionate about a subject. I think your position is educated and lies in both factual and emotional reason. I cannot disagree with you. However, even if I don't know what happened before - I've spent the past few years on these forums just learning english beyond "Hello me am Zombie Warrior" - I still think you can't just 'educate' people like that. People dislike change. Change takes time to operate. But change is unavoidable. It is a force of nature greater than all of us. Do not doubt it! It is, I believe, natural that people are resistant to things they don't understand, things which are different from their current way of life or their personal philosophy. In this aspect, I believe Adorno has learned a lot and has been very receptive to ideas which are foreign to his understanding.
Think about it, when you're being pointed out as being in the wrong, how do you react? Is it your first reaction to say "Oh right sorry, I was wrong!". It could happen, but a lot of people just don't digest very well to be in the wrong. They absolutely can't accept that. They take time to turn around and change their ways. But there is absolutely no chance to convince people if you are being rude and mean to them! They will not want to change if the individual who is telling to do that is yelling insults at them. From their point of view, you are being malicious. You can only understand and be understood if you are being receptive and polite yourself. I'd say the one person you accuse of being closed and malicious is much more open to change than you are. If he really was the troll you tell him he is, this discussion wouldn't be so one sided.
When there's a dialogue, there are two people. When it's a war of words, it's just one person twice yelling into the void in vain. You cannot hear, you cannot see, you can only scream and that's what bothers me the most with your position. What do you gain from doing this? You gain a loss. That's all. You can't win like this. People don't listen to angry screams, they plug their ears and they don't change. And when it's their turn to scream, it's your turn to plug your ears and close your eyes...
Think about it, when you're being pointed out as being in the wrong, how do you react? Is it your first reaction to say "Oh right sorry, I was wrong!". It could happen, but a lot of people just don't digest very well to be in the wrong. They absolutely can't accept that. They take time to turn around and change their ways. But there is absolutely no chance to convince people if you are being rude and mean to them! They will not want to change if the individual who is telling to do that is yelling insults at them. From their point of view, you are being malicious. You can only understand and be understood if you are being receptive and polite yourself. I'd say the one person you accuse of being closed and malicious is much more open to change than you are. If he really was the troll you tell him he is, this discussion wouldn't be so one sided.
When there's a dialogue, there are two people. When it's a war of words, it's just one person twice yelling into the void in vain. You cannot hear, you cannot see, you can only scream and that's what bothers me the most with your position. What do you gain from doing this? You gain a loss. That's all. You can't win like this. People don't listen to angry screams, they plug their ears and they don't change. And when it's their turn to scream, it's your turn to plug your ears and close your eyes...
Being literally dehumanized and watching moderation for years and years continue to ignore, enable, or encourage it does little to temper one's passion and combativeness. If you want people on the internet to stop saying mean things to you, see the humanity in people who don't fit your cisheteronormative ideal. Civility is great, but it starts with a good-faith discussion. That has never happened.
Interestingly you admit you know nothing of what's happened before! Strange to me, then, you decide to post some cringe about it.
Interestingly you admit you know nothing of what's happened before! Strange to me, then, you decide to post some cringe about it.
I am sorry it comes off as cringy to you, I made efforts to fix that, but I've yet to fully grow. Give me a change to grow, perhaps later I'll post something which you will not have to resist from looking away!
I can understand how that can drive you to give up and become like them, but don't give up the good fight yet!
I'm sorry, but your idealistic standpoint on this is incompatible with the problems that people actually face. You can't constantly demand that one side should continue to be the bigger people solely for the comfort of the other side. You have no right to demand that people sacrifice increasing amounts of themselves for an uncaring world.
Combating a greater evil with a (much) lesser one is entirely justifiable. Sorry, but at the end of day, you get some mean words said about you on a forum and can go back to ignoring the problems of the world - some people, meanwhile, now have to go back to their lives in a world that is happy to continually crush them underfoot.
I don't think Zombie is calling for civility for civility's sake - I think he is calling for it as an effective tool of persuasion. On that point, I'm pretty agnostic - it's my own personal style of argument, but I think there can be a plurality of different approaches to changing minds on the subject of transphobia in the community.
I remember literally nothing of an argument about anything on this or a similar subject. I wonder where this argument came from?
This. Thank you, I should have said it that way.
My own reason tells me that revolutionaries cannot change society no matter how good their intentions are, only reformists can do that part. (it's a metaphor, by the way just saying in case)
What evidence do you have that supports this? I think it's obvious that both can change society.
Don't worry, I'm sure you can protest it from your couch.
I don't even know what I should protest or how I got included in this conversation.
Pluys I have been absent for years. -3-
Bad metaphor to use since history proves you wrong.
....
Bad metaphor to use since history proves you wrong.
@Evelyn: Points taken, thanks for explaining. And it's true, I freely confess that the issue doesn't affect me personally and I do hope my ignorance in some matters isn't perceived as prejudice. Still, my comments (correct or mistaken) were more general, not specific to this issue.
Also, isn't really anyone going to welcome Pixel back, after all these years? Or was he here and I am that absent minded? Might very well be so, of course.
Also, isn't really anyone going to welcome Pixel back, after all these years? Or was he here and I am that absent minded? Might very well be so, of course.
You are absent minded.
