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Kobrag

Marquis
What sex is a man who menstruates?
a pre-transition man or at least whatever pronoun they want to be called? Come on man. Gender (in common parlance) is your metaphysical sense/perspective of your sex, while sex refers to your body. Some people feel that their gender is different than their born sex, so they are transgender, you then become transsexual after correcting it physically. You seem to be intentionaly combative and insensitive.

I am still drunk, so I am trying to be as clear as possible.I edited this sooooo much.
 
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Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
a pre-transition man or at least whatever pronoun they want to be called? Come on man. Gender (in common parlance) is your metaphysical sense/perspective of your sex, while sex refers to your body. Some people feel that their gender is different than their born sex, so they are transgender, you then become transsexual after correcting it physically. You seem to be intentionaly combative and insensitive.

I am still drunk, so I am trying to be as clear as possible.I edited this sooooo much.
I'm genuinely trying to understand, but that comes off as insensitive. More insults:
My problem is that sex (physical body) also seems to be an identity ("whatever pronoun they want to be called") just like gender.
So the sex is not (only) the physiology, but an idea.
The idea of non-binary specifically states that males/females do not exist, but instead there is a continuum.
That means you can't transition from a sex you don't feel like. That sex doesn't exist to begin with. You were simply somewhere on the continuum.
Sex doesn't define anything. Any person regardless of sex (physicality) can identify as male/female, or anything else.
The pre-trans man who menstruates, might as well say he's a woman, or man, and the physical sex doesn't refer to physicality but to whatever the person identifies as.
The gender-sex duality is broken down and can't be seen separately.
 

Cyborg Eastern European

Canis Mechanicus
Archduke
Well, I could try taking a dump on the General History Questions thread, but frankly, I was never that good at riling her up.
Which is a shame, since it's a thing of beauty to see. :cry:
 

Kobrag

Marquis
I'm genuinely trying to understand, but that comes off as insensitive. More insults:
My problem is that sex (physical body) also seems to be an identity ("whatever pronoun they want to be called") just like gender.
So the sex is not (only) the physiology, but an idea.
The idea of non-binary specifically states that males/females do not exist, but instead there is a continuum.
That means you can't transition from a sex you don't feel like. That sex doesn't exist to begin with. You were simply somewhere on the continuum.
Sex doesn't define anything. Any person regardless of sex (physicality) can identify as male/female, or anything else.
The pre-trans man who menstruates, might as well say he's a woman, or man, and the physical sex doesn't refer to physicality but to whatever the person identifies as.
The gender-sex duality is broken down and can't be seen separately.
In my opinion, I think you are just over thinking the concept. My prior coment on "whatever pronoun they want to be called" was calling for people to just to treat others civily and not use their biology against their mental image of themselves, not a statement towards the argument.

Its wierd that this identity disorder gets people so riled up and not DID* or the long list of personality disorders, of which you could probably use as a bingo card on this forum.

*Of which I have had treatment for as well as NPD and Schizotypal Disorder (STPD).
 

kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
I think you're a little behind the times :smile: Trans-ness is no longer a disorder. Only gender dysphoria is, but you don't need to experience gender dysphoria in order to be trans (at least according to some/most?).
 

Kobrag

Marquis
I think you're a little behind the times :smile: Trans-ness is no longer a disorder. Only gender dysphoria is, but you don't need to experience gender dysphoria in order to be trans (at least according to some/most?).
That's taken me a bit off guard. But only because it challenges me on arguing the very definition of 'disorder'. But again, I prefer civility. I know very well how it is to be broken down into checkboxes*.

*It seemed a loit less hurtful when it was all self diagnosed in my teens.
 

Krik

Duke
M&BWB
To be fair, it's not something that is really taught to the general public. And as far as I am aware, trans folk are a pretty small minority so a lot of people will just have no experience with it.
 

kurczak

Section Moderator
WB
That's taken me a bit off guard. But only because it challenges me on arguing the very definition of 'disorder'. But again, I prefer civility. I know very well how it is to be broken down into checkboxes*.

*It seemed a loit less hurtful when it was all self diagnosed in my teens.
I wasn't challenging or insulting you. If trans-ness is classified as a disorder in itself or not is not just empty scholastics. If it is, then the attack helicopter jokes, while rude and hurtful, were essentially accurate in that the trans person's perception of self as <gender> was factually wrong, a delusion, like the voices a schizophreniac hears are. The hormones, surgery and legal transition were then recognized as the best treatment of such disorder. The path of least resistance to alleviate the consequences of the disorder.

The current situation however, recognizes the trans person's perception of self as <gender> as valid and real. The hormones surgery and legal transition are means to align the subordinate realities (hormonal, biological and legal) with the superordinate reality (identity).
 

Kobrag

Marquis
I wasn't challenging or insulting you. If trans-ness is classified as a disorder in itself or not is not just empty scholastics. If it is, then the attack helicopter jokes, while rude and hurtful, were essentially accurate in that the trans person's perception of self as <gender> was factually wrong, a delusion, like the voices a schizophreniac hears are. The hormones, surgery and legal transition were then recognized as the best treatment of such disorder. The path of least resistance to alleviate the consequences of the disorder.

The current situation however, recognizes the trans person's perception of self as <gender> as valid and real. The hormones surgery and legal transition are means to align the subordinate realities (hormonal, biological and legal) with the superordinate reality (identity).
Fair enough. :grin:
None of you guys know anything. Jesus Christ.
Way to contribute to a dicussion. :3
I know enough not to treat people like monsters, unlike most of the media, even left wing.
 

Evelyn

Goblet
Duke
WF&SWBNWVC
I've wasted hundreds of hours talking about this subject here, Kobrag. What it comes down to is that the people who consistently argue about it are people who are just completely dense and aren't interested in learning so much as essentially virtue signalling how goodly conservative and "normal" they are because saying "lol sjws" or whatever is easier than trying to actually understand. Adorno, for example, has absolutely no excuse for having such an INCREDIBLY monumental lack of understanding of this entire subject if he's in the medical field, and he punctuates it with "haha sick njot care ur identrity :smile:" as if *that* is a contribution to the discussion. No, it immediately characterizes the kind of person he is. Dan, too, immediately chiming in with something completely cynical and missing the point entirely. Yes, sure, it's in his character to be cynical and sarcastic and ****post about everything, but there's no way to construe what he said in a positive light. What I've learned after years of having this back-and-forth on here is that you need to know your audience, and if your audience is the kind of audience that we have right here, there's no point at all, since transphobia has been a long time staple of this forum's community, and has been ignored by mods here since forever. It's necessary to voice my frustrations about this subject for the sole purpose of people knowing that they're barking up the COMPLETELY wrong tree, but to engage in actual discourse about it in an open environment here is completely futile when there are open fascists who think that it's okay to call all LGBT+ people degenerates on the mod team.
 

Antonis

Marquis
WBWF&SVCNW
Wow.
giphy.gif

Jokes aside, a couple of points:
a) I might be wrong and did a complete misjudge of character, but folks in this discussion don't really look like open fascists to me. Certainly not adorno, kurczak etc. Again, I might be wrong. But fascism is a very, very specific term(with ofc, negative colours and past), which gets flung around way too easily nowadays.
b) Somehow, I don't see how the proper response to a cynical and sarcastic individual is a cynical and sarcastic one it tone.
c) I'll be the last person to defend the mods here, but you have to admit they do tend to jump to the slightest hint of real flaming, insult or racist/sexist behaviour. People got muted because they said (*nothing, because why would you use a word people are muted for in the same sentence you acknowledge people getting muted for that word), not even the n-word. People got warned for jokes slightly not proper involving genders (I know, because I have a board and in the old forum, I could see the Warnings etc.). Allowing sexual discrimination for years sounds a bit of a stretch, to say the least.
d) We could have a proper, educational discussion (I'd be up for it, in all honesty), but people on all sides tend to ridicule, retort and stick to words instead of meaning in every serious discussion I've had here, more or less. Myself included, of course. I know you do so, even in this instance and others. So, it seems logical to me that since **** get flung from all sides, there's really not one specific party to blaim. Saying, "I told ya many times but you don't listen", while behaving aggressively in all those aforementioned times, does seem a bit holier-than-thou attitude, eh?
 
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