[Suggestion] Cavalry gets less and less fun each patch

[CtrlAltDe1337]

OK, well this is not really a suggestion thread (although I do have many suggestions) as much as a statement.  I want to let the devs know how I and many other cavalry players feel.  Cavalry is getting less fun to play with each patch it seems like.  They seem to get nerfed almost each patch, and the game mechanics of how horsemen play just aren't as much fun.  Now to be fair, they weren't perfect before.  I am grateful that some issues have been fixed.  But cavalry was far more enjoyable.

First off, the biggest issue is couching.  It just isn't very fun.  There is no skill involved.  Lancing is far more enjoyable but its almost worthless now.  I love playing cavalry, and I have ever since the beta came out.  I've been in the beta since .500 so I've seen the various evolutions of horsemanship in M&B.  Right now I want to just quit in disgust about half the time I play as a horseman.  Either it is a skill-less couching noob fest, or I try to play otherwise and realize how woefully imbalanced horsemen are.

From a gameplay perspective, lancing is very ineffective.  Swordfighting off horseback fares a little better in some cases, but it too is much weaker than couching in most situations.

I really want to see all 3 dynamics have their place in the game.  Right now that isn't happening very well.



Along with this is the issue of weapon & equipment prices and character stats.  Who thought it was a good idea to increase lance costs, while keeping everything else the same?  Why does a hunter cost more than a courser when the latter is far superior per denar spent?  Why are boots so expensive?  Where are the cavalry swords at affordable prices?  Why can you barely move as a dismounted horseman, even if you are carrying almost no gear?  And where is trample damage?  Variety among equipment prices in different factions to make them more unique?

I don't mean to sound like I am ranting against the devs here.  I appreciate their hard work making this one-of-a-kind game, and so graciously allowing us to beta test it.  But these are real issues that need to get fixed.  Adjusting prices and equipment are not vital, since mods can do that, but the gameplay mechanics definitely need to be addressed.  I want to see M&B live up to its potential as the best Medieval combat sim ever created.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Qwertyman]

I would like to say that some of what you say is subjective-  such as the point about hunters,  for a lancer yes coursairs are better,  but for a mounted swordsman the hunter is vastly superior in every way (speed is not important for mounted swordsmen)

I personaly have had more fun on horseback than ever due mounted swordsmanship being viable,  although I do agree that couching is mindlessly easy and skilless, but also gets the most kills.
with a lot of effort you can be more powerful than a lancer using mounted swordsmanship,  but the problem is-  with a couced lance you can rack up stupid amounts of kills by pointing your mouse towards the enemy,  you dont even have to think.

 

[SockMonkeh]

I would like to say that some of what you say is subjective-  such as the point about hunters,  for a lancer yes coursairs are better,  but for a mounted swordsman the hunter is vastly superior in every way (speed is not important for mounted swordsmen)

I always get a hunter and I am primarily a lancer. They are made for combat, so they take more damage and they run through guys more reliably. It's easy to get to couched lance speed on them, too. Not a problem in the slightest.

 

[okiN]

I have to say cavalry is anything but nerfed in this patch. It's finally going in the right direction with more robust mounts, and 1h fighting on horseback is a more viable solution than ever in this version. Couching is still boring and annoying, true, but at least it can't lance through horses anymore. And regardless of couchers on the enemy team, I just a short while ago got a score of 32/0 k/d as a 1h cleaver horseman on the FnD server, with Rhodoks vs defending Nords. Couching should be adjusted, but I don't think basic horse gameplay really needs buffing anymore. Two-handers, polearms, massed missile units and lancers are still generally to be avoided head-on, but a smart sword and board rider can do very well.

 

[Nahkuri]

Yeah. I was playing as Sarranids today and found that after a while I was completely ignoring my lance and solely relying on my cavalry sword. It was awesome, and quite fun. The aim seems a bit off, however. I'm tired as **** and slightly tipsy, so I'm just gonna let my art capture the moment when the horseman's swing has reached about half of it's arc and let that do the talking instead of writing lengthy paragraphs of the oddity.

So I ride past an infantry dude with about 1m of distance between him and my horse. I aim at his head, and am expecting this to happen.

Spoiler

But instead the blade does this, with unpleasing results.

Spoiler

So if I want to hit the infantry dude, I'll have to aim above him a bit, instead of looking down at him. If I look at him the blade does something similar than the lowest possible strike in the Native was. Makes things a touch unpredictable and difficult, but it still seems to be working smoother than in older WB versions. Good job.

 

[Jack_Merchantson]

New.

Desktop.

Wallpaper.

 

[Urist]

Sorry, but the OP is utter BS.
I played cav and it's very effective and fun this patch.
With lancing (thrusting) one can fight 2handers effectively,
couching is ideal against unaware and stationary targets.
Sword&board is alot better now with rarer rearing,
it's effective against ranged and shielded target, thanks to bump-slashing.

I think cavalry got alot love this patch.

 

[Welcome_To_Hell]

Couching is not very skillful, and it is easy to avoid if you see the lancer coming.

IMHO It gets really boring after a few kills.

Swordsmanship got a little better with the new animation, but now it goes directly down, when it used to go directly up.

 

[Qwertyman]

the angle of your blade depends entirely on where you point the camera, it just takes getting used to.

and couching needs some major changes.

 

[AWdeV]

Yeah. I was playing as Sarranids today and found that after a while I was completely ignoring my lance and solely relying on my cavalry sword. It was awesome, and quite fun. The aim seems a bit off, however. I'm tired as **** and slightly tipsy, so I'm just gonna let my art capture the moment when the horseman's swing has reached about half of it's arc and let that do the talking instead of writing lengthy paragraphs of the oddity.

So I ride past an infantry dude with about 1m of distance between him and my horse. I aim at his head, and am expecting this to happen.

Spoiler

But instead the blade does this, with unpleasing results.

Spoiler

So if I want to hit the infantry dude, I'll have to aim above him a bit, instead of looking down at him. If I look at him the blade does something similar than the lowest possible strike in the Native was. Makes things a touch unpredictable and difficult, but it still seems to be working smoother than in older WB versions. Good job.

That's not a new issue though. The angle of strikes from horseback are insaaanely stupid. I've said that somewhere else a while ago.

 

[CtrlAltDe1337]

OK so I've played cav quite a bit more on this latest patch now.  It has done some good things: horses are a bit stronger (possibly a little too strong) and they don't seem to rear as often, which is very good.  This is vastly improved.  But my previous statements still need to be addressed.

I would like to say that some of what you say is subjective-  such as the point about hunters,  for a lancer yes coursairs are better,  but for a mounted swordsman the hunter is vastly superior in every way (speed is not important for mounted swordsmen)

I always get a hunter and I am primarily a lancer. They are made for combat, so they take more damage and they run through guys more reliably. It's easy to get to couched lance speed on them, too. Not a problem in the slightest.

The Hunter is slower than a saddle horse.  You will get destroyed by another cavalryman if you are using a hunter and he has a courser (and he knows what he is doing).  Not to mention you can't afford a hunter and heavy lance within the 1,000 gold safety limit.  And skilled archers will make Swiss cheese out of hunters, whereas a courser is fast enough that you can avoid a lot of shots.  The hunter should get better comparably.  I don't care if it gets buffed or the others get nerfed, but its not good for the amount of money you pay.

Sorry, but the OP is utter BS.
I played cav and it's very effective and fun this patch.
With lancing (thrusting) one can fight 2handers effectively,
couching is ideal against unaware and stationary targets.
Sword&board is alot better now with rarer rearing,
it's effective against ranged and shielded target, thanks to bump-slashing.

I think cavalry got alot love this patch.

Of course you can fight 2-handers effectively (unless they discover all they have to do is block downwards) with thrusts.  But its terribly weak (damage got nerfed a few patches ago when they changed couching).  You have to hit an armored opponent sometimes around 6 times to score a kill, compared to 1 with a couch.  I do this a lot since its fun, but as I said, very weak.

Couching is good against what it should be, but its not skillful or fun.

Swords are OK but the animations are still really spotty.  The animations from regular M&B were much more functional.

 

[Qwertyman]

OK so I've played cav quite a bit more on this latest patch now.  It has done some good things: horses are a bit stronger (possibly a little too strong) and they don't seem to rear as often, which is very good.  This is vastly improved.  But my previous statements still need to be addressed.

I would like to say that some of what you say is subjective-  such as the point about hunters,  for a lancer yes coursairs are better,  but for a mounted swordsman the hunter is vastly superior in every way (speed is not important for mounted swordsmen)

I always get a hunter and I am primarily a lancer. They are made for combat, so they take more damage and they run through guys more reliably. It's easy to get to couched lance speed on them, too. Not a problem in the slightest.

The Hunter is slower than a saddle horse.  You will get destroyed by another cavalryman if you are using a hunter and he has a courser (and he knows what he is doing).  Not to mention you can't afford a hunter and heavy lance within the 1,000 gold safety limit.  And skilled archers will make Swiss cheese out of hunters, whereas a courser is fast enough that you can avoid a lot of shots.  The hunter should get better comparably.  I don't care if it gets buffed or the others get nerfed, but its not good for the amount of money you pay.

Sorry, but the OP is utter BS.
I played cav and it's very effective and fun this patch.
With lancing (thrusting) one can fight 2handers effectively,
couching is ideal against unaware and stationary targets.
Sword&board is alot better now with rarer rearing,
it's effective against ranged and shielded target, thanks to bump-slashing.

I think cavalry got alot love this patch.

Of course you can fight 2-handers effectively (unless they discover all they have to do is block downwards) with thrusts.  But its terribly weak (damage got nerfed a few patches ago when they changed couching).  You have to hit an armored opponent sometimes around 6 times to score a kill, compared to 1 with a couch.  I do this a lot since its fun, but as I said, very weak.

Couching is good against what it should be, but its not skillful or fun.

Swords are OK but the animations are still really spotty.  The animations from regular M&B were much more functional.

again, i disagree here.
I find the hunter to be vastly superior for anything but a lancer-    you can out manuver a courair with ease-  if you know what your doing, a coursar lancer will NEVER hit you unless by surprise.  and saddle horses suck, even if they are slightly faster-  but speed is only important for lancers.

and archers?  the hunters agility means that it is impossible for them to get long or even mid range shots on you if you dodge effectively.

sword on horseback animations just take getting used to,  they are far more usefull than old M&B animatons when you get used to them.
fighting a 2hander (with stabbing with a lance,  or slashing with a sword)  is all about timing,  if you put speed in as you stab you deal a lot of damage, getting 1-2 hit kills often.  2-4 if they have heavy armour.

EDIT:  you mention not being able to buy heavy lances with a hunter-    heavy lances are better for coursairs-    the hunters agility makes the light lance a very powerfull weapon  (in my experience, better than the greatlance)    you dont rely on brute force, but instead on timing and agility.

 

[Cataphract]

Im not sure if im skilled enough to give input on this matter, but my observance has been in this patch, that cavalry is quite succesful in engaging infantry that arent aware of them. Yet they seem to have no sort of understanding that a rhodok Pike will always kill or dismount them, only the most experienced players avoid the pike ive seen, i find this surprising. Because of this, the Rhodok pike, together with the Glaive to fight the possibly dismounted rider, is one of the most powerful combination of tools i use.

I havent yet tried horseback riding in this patch personally, but mostly ive been getting killed by a couched lance in back, this could be i suck, but it happens more now 

 

[Gabeed]

One of the biggest issues I've seen with cavalry is the issue of cost.  I'm sick of seeing lancers in shirts.  It's just ridiculous-looking.  I think horses need to be made cheaper.

 

[CtrlAltDe1337]

again, i disagree here.
I find the hunter to be vastly superior for anything but a lancer-    you can out manuver a courair with ease-  if you know what your doing, a coursar lancer will NEVER hit you unless by surprise.  and saddle horses suck, even if they are slightly faster-  but speed is only important for lancers.

and archers?  the hunters agility means that it is impossible for them to get long or even mid range shots on you if you dodge effectively.

sword on horseback animations just take getting used to,  they are far more usefull than old M&B animatons when you get used to them.
fighting a 2hander (with stabbing with a lance,  or slashing with a sword)  is all about timing,  if you put speed in as you stab you deal a lot of damage, getting 1-2 hit kills often.  2-4 if they have heavy armour.

EDIT:  you mention not being able to buy heavy lances with a hunter-    heavy lances are better for coursairs-    the hunters agility makes the light lance a very powerfull weapon  (in my experience, better than the greatlance)    you dont rely on brute force, but instead on timing and agility.

The hunter is worse for anyone but a sword cavalry, as I have already said.  Fighting a courser will send you to your grave.  And this is precisely when you need a heavy lance to outreach him.  Stabbing vs stabbing or even couching vs couching, longer lances are vital.  And stabbing is still very, very weak.  Did you ever play lancer cavalry before it got nerfed?  Because the damage was practically cut in half.  Plus the turning limitation means you cant bend around as far and stab, which makes lancing at slow speeds against infantry much harder.

The hunter is no more agile than other horses.  Try fighting some professional archers (I'm not talking about sucky public players) and you will get destroyed before you can reach them.  I discovered this during some clan practices against our best archer players in nK.  The courser was vastly better against them despite its lower health.

Sword animations off the horse still frequently miss where you are aiming because they are buggy.  You can't say otherwise with a straight face.  They look nice, but still have problems from time to time.



This is not speculation.  These things are facts of M&B which I encounter over and over.  And they make cavalry less enjoyable then it was before.

Im not sure if im skilled enough to give input on this matter, but my observance has been in this patch, that cavalry is quite succesful in engaging infantry that arent aware of them. Yet they seem to have no sort of understanding that a rhodok Pike will always kill or dismount them, only the most experienced players avoid the pike ive seen, i find this surprising. Because of this, the Rhodok pike, together with the Glaive to fight the possibly dismounted rider, is one of the most powerful combination of tools i use.

I havent yet tried horseback riding in this patch personally, but mostly ive been getting killed by a couched lance in back, this could be i suck, but it happens more now 

I think the reason cavalry resort to couching people in the back so much is because they are so weak in fighting head-on.  This is one of the problems.

 

[Berserker Pride]

I wouldn't mind if hunter's price was dropped to match coursier.  That way you can choose between speed or toughness.  Both horses have different abilities.  One shouldn't cost more than the other.  I say this assuming that hunter will never be given extreme charge damage.  If it ever was then it would become far superior to a coursier.  But I think it should stay as it is now.  It won't rear isn't insanely well armored but it will take a couple hits.  So then you have hunter for sword and boarders and courser for lancers.  Equal cost for each at 600.

EDIT:
I find this patch a great improvement to mounted combat already as is.  I noticed the sarranid cav sword now costs 310 instead of 410.  Which allows you to get the first armor upgrade as well as the arabian.  That alone helps a lot.  I also tried out the new iron hatchet they get.  The thing is actually pretty wicked from horseback.  You have to get close but as long as you aren't standing still you will kill in one hit.  It is great for archer hunting..

 

[Qwertyman]

I think we just have differing playstyles here.  I can easily take on a courair lancer as a hunter lancer,  you just simply don't charge head on,  take him from the sides.

and i don't know how you can say a hunter has no more agility than a corsair-  they can out turn them with ease,  even if the corsair slows to the same speed.  and I have played against good archers, and do regularly-  again, its about mobility-  weave and dodge unpredictably and they wont be able to lead their shots at all.  I imagine the only reason your corsair players fared better against your archers was because they got less shots off before they reached them,  but put into practice the archers will have a lot more to worry about than a horse charging directly at them from the horizon.

In my experience I can down corsair easier than anything but a saddle horse with a bow,  their speed means nothing-  i just have to lead my shot slightly further.

Sword animations aren't buggy!  I play mounted swordsman ALL THE TIME and can land my hits no problem, seriously-  they just take getting used to. 


Couching is horrendously overpowered,  the ONLY reason i don't couch is because it is ridiculously easy and skillless,  i can storm my way to a stupid K/D ratio without hardly trying using a couched lance.

 

[Meister_Eder]

With the changes to couching I like cavalry much more then in the last patches. But still many things feel wrong:
The heavy horses get more and more useless, couching is still too easy, cavalry battles are just chaos, the great lance can still be used for thrusting, the round cavalry shields suck in 1. person ...

 

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I think we just have differing playstyles here.  I can easily take on a courair lancer as a hunter lancer,  you just simply don't charge head on,  take him from the sides.

Well of course you can; you can take out a courser on a warhorse or saddle horse too.  But you are at a disadvantage, and an equally skilled player will destroy you, because (barring skill differences) the courser gives a big advantage.

and i don't know how you can say a hunter has no more agility than a corsair-  they can out turn them with ease,  even if the corsair slows to the same speed.  and I have played against good archers, and do regularly-  again, its about mobility-  weave and dodge unpredictably and they wont be able to lead their shots at all.  I imagine the only reason your corsair players fared better against your archers was because they got less shots off before they reached them,  but put into practice the archers will have a lot more to worry about than a horse charging directly at them from the horizon.

Look at the stats.  Unless something changed and I didn't see it, maneuverability is the same, and speed on the hunter is much slower.  I realize that moving at slower speeds allows you to turn sharper, but a courser can simply slow down and turn at the same speed.  And I must disagree with your assessment of archerfire.  Go up against some pro archers and your hunter will be Swiss cheese in a few seconds.  It simply can't move fast enough to dodge as well.  You can dodge with any horse, but the courser is by far the easiest.  I don't think you are understanding the issue here.

 

[Iscariott]

The new camera system is a pain in the ass for missile cav.  I feel like now that they've made the 'shaft' of the lance not count for couching the system is a lot closer to fair.