Nero_Roman
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Shiet, didnt think my post would blow up this much, posted it in the first day of early access.
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SP - General Sturgia worst performing faction, due to having the worst Troop tree, Liege AI, Economy and Geography.
- Thread starter Nero_Roman
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Dr-Shinobi
lol its a full on war baby or well a scientific argument more likely and political statements xD
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Dr-Shinobi
Did about a 10 hour or so play through with the Sturgians, to me they feel weak, the troops that they have are kinda "Meh" compared to the other faction, Is it me or are they like that?
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By @Mote
That being said, let's get into it:
1. Faction Specialization
From the perspective of a newcomer, it's clear that every faction has a unique specialization, often expressed through the lore of the game itself. Vlandia with it's banner knights and crossbowmen, the Empire with it's heavily armored legionaries and cataphracts, Battanians with their elite noble archers and falxman, Khuzait and their heavily armored archer cavalry. Each of these has it's own iconic personality and a roster that highlights each of their respective strengths. Now, where does that leave Sturgia?
From the lore perspective they are a hardy and proud northern people whose iconic shielded infantry were able to best and repel the Empire's legionaries, which would imply a focus on elite melee infantry. This is what drew me to them in the first place, I personally am a sucker for the elite melee infantry archetype. In a game where typically cavalry and missiles tend to be the star players, having an army that puts the focus on the rank and file infantry is somewhat charming. A shield wall that blocks all projectiles, braces against all cavalry charges, and marches ever forward, cutting down any infantry foolhardy enough to stand in their way. This is the vision that the Sturgians seem to be selling and the vision that the Sturgian roster fails to live up to.
2. A Closer Look at Sturgian Units
Looking at the Sturgian roster alone, it's pretty diverse. You have all your infantry archetypes, a light missile cav unit, and an archer unit. Let's address the last tier of each of these units in reverse order:
The Sturgian Veteran Bowsman: Quite possibly the worst t5 basic tree archer in the game. Barbed arrows are the lowest tier arrow for a t5 troop and their leather armor makes them relatively fragile compared to their Empire, Aserai or Khuzait counterparts. Only the Empire Palatine Guard has fewer arrows due to only having one quiver, but makes up for it with incredibly high quality armor and t4 melee weapon. Sturgia being a melee infantry focused faction, I see absolutely no problem with them having the worst archer in the game, but it is worth mentioning here. It also should be said that bows are probably the best ranged weapon in the game, so even the worst bow unit in the game can still fulfill it's role adequately.
Sturgian Horse Raider: The lone missile cavalry unit on the roster, from a stat/gear perspective, there isn't anything particularly wrong with this unit. Relatively well armored, solid t4 1h sword, the biggest problem with this unit is that it uses throwing weapons. Throwing weapon missile cavalry is just not very good, but just like the archer, it can perform it's role well enough. Once again, not an issue in itself for a melee infantry focused faction.
Sturgian Ulfhednar: This is the unit where the red flags begin to appear. One of the very few units in the game that is demonstrably worse than the unit preceding it, the Sturgian Berserker. Two handed weapons units are already a very weak archetype in the current metagame. They are fodder in sieges, they get picked apart by missile units, and they die if a looter even looks at them the wrong way. The Sturgian Ulfhednar takes all these weaknesses, and dials them up to 11. When you "upgrade" this unit from the berserker you exchange a set of very decent mail armor for basically no armor at all, you lose 20 two-handed skill, and all you get in return is a bit more athletics and a set of t1 throwing axes. This is a terrible unit in a terrible archetype. I don't know how to fix this unit, but a start would be to fix their 2h skill. If they are set on committing to the unarmored berserker archetype, they need at least 200 athletics, because if I've learned anything from playing this game, it's that armor is king.
Sturgian Veteran Warrior: The single shining beacon of the entire Sturgian roster that carries the entire faction on it's back. It's a good axe/shield infantry unit with throwing javelins. In the beta 1.1.0, they are tentatively being given a set of brass lamellar where they previously had nothing in the cape slot, which will make them relatively durable, compared to live 1.0.10, where they had relatively low armor. My only complaint is that even this unit, the best Sturgia has to offer, is only about on-par with the Empire's legionary, whereas pretty much every other empire unit is superior to the Sturgian role equivalent.
Sturgian Shock Troop: The awkward and less popular younger brother of the veteran warrior. It also gains the same shoulder upgrade as the veteran in the beta, but still trades a full tier of stats, significantly worse armor and throwing weapons in exchange for a t5 spear, making it the only max rank spear unit on the basic roster. If all that wasn't enough, it faces the biggest problem of them all: spear units just kind of suck, and issue we will revisit later. For the time being, there is basically no reason to ever take this unit over the veterans.
Sturgian Spearmen: <rant> I was only going to look at t5 units for this, but the spearmen is just too egregious to ignore. This unit is so bad. It's the precursor to the veteran and the shock troops, but for some unknown reason it trades it's large shield that it has in t3 and t5 for a pathetic tiny cavalry shield that has never blocked a projectile in the history of the world. They also have leather armor, which, for your main frontline t4 infantry, is absolutely pathetic. The t3 soldiers are usually preferable to these disgraces, because as least they have usable shields. Someone ran an 80 v 80 battle of Sturgian Spearmen vs Sturgian Bowmen who were ordered not to fire their bows, and the bowmen won. The t4 Sturgian bowmen is literally a better melee infantry unit than the dedicated sturgian t4 melee infantry unit. </rant>
Looking at the basic roster overall, we are left with a very solid melee t5 unit... and not a whole lot else. Aside from the Veteran, the best that a base Sturgian unit can hope for is: "Can perform it's role only slightly worse than the alternatives."
3. Spears Kind of Suck
The biggest problem with a faction that specialized in melee infantry is the fact that spear units just aren't very good at their job. Some testing has been done, and it turns out that Vladian Voulgier's are more effective anti-cavalry tools than Vladian Pikeman. Apparently Sturgian Berserkers are better anti-cavalry units than Sturgian Spearmen, although they are both generally pretty poor at it. 2H units in general are more effective at taking down cavalry units than spears, at least when it comes to AI. Cavalry in this game are already the answer to pretty much every problem. They mow down ranged units, chase down fleeing units, slam into the flanks of engaged melee infantry, they are the solution to most problems that the game can throw at them. But charging cavalry into a line of braced spearmen should be pretty much suicide, and mechanically, that is just not the case. This makes spear units almost always a worse option over sword and board alternatives, who are much better against infantry.
4. Noble Lines
This, in my opinion, is by far the most egregious injustice done against the Sturgian roster. Noble lines should be the hallmark of a faction that embody it's strengths. Think Battanian Fian Champions, Imperial Elite Cataphracts, Vlandian Banner Knights, Khuzait Khan's Guards: each the epitome of their respective factions. The Sturgian Noble line starts as a shielded spear unit with throwing axes, that was shaping up to be an analog to the veteran and then half way through the tree changes it's mind and becomes the Druzhinnik. 220 Bow skill on a unit that doesn't even have a ranged weapon. 60 Polearm skill, when it's primary weapon is a spear. A heavy cavalry unit that is never mentioned or referenced anywhere in the lore or perceived play-style that Sturgia embodies. The saddest part is the Varyag Veterans, the 3rd level of this unit, is actually a better spearmen than the Sturgian Spearmen, due to the better armor and throwing axes, even if it only has 15(!!!) in the throwing skill.
This entire line needs to be reexamined from the ground up. Sturgia doesn't need a bargain bin cataphract with a broken skill allocation. You know what I'd want to see for the noble line? An upgraded Skolder Veteran Brotva. This is the unique line of troops that the lake-rat Sturgian subfaction has. Spear + Axe + Throwing Javelins with the iconic big shield and a sane stat lineup. Slap the veteran armor on this bad-boy and you have the most the most elite melee infantry unit in the game. A unit worthy of being called a t6 noble unit that embodies Sturgia's strengths rather than this broken and disappointing compromise.
Edit: Here are the calculated armor values for t3 and t4 spear/shield infantry. The more I dig into the numbers, the more outraged I become...
T3 Spearmen:
- Empire: 29/32/24/23 - 108 (Total)
- Khuzait: 28/33/17/18 - 96
- Battania: 28/23/13/22 - 86
- Vlandia: 18/15/18/14 - 65
- Aserai: 21/14/10/16 - 61
- Sturgia 35/12/2/12 - 61
T4 Spearmen:
Note Sturgia barely edge out Khuzait here, but their armor is weighted toward their legs, and the Khuzait Spearmen get Javelins in t4, both of which far outweigh any extra leg armor.
- Empire: 32/56/45/28 - 161 (Total)
- Aserai: 28/26/32/10 - 119
- Battania: 32/44/17/22 - 115
- Sturgia: 26/26/24/29 - 105
- Khuzait: 26/22/33/19 - 100
- Vlandia: (n/a, no spear/shield variant, only Billmen
Edit 2: I limited my focus in this post purely to the units and how they are balanced, another user made a good post outlining the economic/AI issues Sturgia faces: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...p-tree-liege-ai-economy-and-geography.414479/
Big Edit 3:
I manually modified the game data files so that custom battles would contain each of the desired units for testing. After these modifications, I started a 250 v 250 battle of Sturgian Units vs each of other factions equivalent units. I then recorded these tests, which are linked below. For your convenience, I have compiled a chart showing whether the Sturgian unit won or lost the battle. I replicated this design across many of the later tier troops and types:
Empire Aserai Vlandia Battania Khuzait T5 Ranged Lose Lose Lose Lose* Lose T5 Missile Cav Lose Lose n/a (Lose) Lose T3 Infantry (Lose) (Lose) Win (Lose) Lose T4 Infantry Lose Lose Lose Lose Lose T5 2H Infantry Win** Lose (Lose) Lose n/a T6 Heavy Cav Lose Lose Lose n/a n/a T5 Infantry (Veterans) Tie Win Win Win*** (Win) T5 Infantry (Shock Troop) Win Win Win Win Win
- Win = Sturgia Wins
- Lose = Sturgia Loses
- () = Close Match (~50 or less remaining)
- * = Used Battanian Heroes, the t4 noble line. Fians or Fian Champions would be a slaughter
- ** = Imperial Elite Menavliaton are technically polearm units, so are probably more of an anti-cavalry unit than an anti-infantry one.
- *** = Used Wildlings instead of Oathsworn since it is a closer analog
While these results were roughly in line with my expectations and for the most part speak for themselves, there were a couple of unexpected results:
Links:
- Different units of the same type can have different gear. Each unit has up to 3 different gear sets, and each unit is randomly given one of these sets. There can be quite a variation between these gear sets, for example, Shock Troops have 3 different possible shields and 2 different cape slot items. They can have lamellar plate shoulders or a 2 armor scarf. They can also have the typical round shield, a kite shield, or the ****ty t4 spearman shield. Another interesting example is the Vlandian Sergeant, who can have a mace, a sword or a 2h axe as a backup weapon.
- Sturgia has the worst t4 infantry of any faction. The Sturgian Spearmen lost overwhelmingly to every other factions t4 equivalent. It wasn't even close.
- Sturgia has the worst ranged unit of any faction*. As long as you count the battanian noble line, which I think is fair. They get crushed by the third tier of the noble Battanian line, and there are two upgrades above that.
- Sturgia has the second worst t3 infantry in the game. The only unit that lost to the Sturgian Soldier was the Vlandian Infantry and Vlandian Spearmen. Although, I must say they over performed compared to my expectations. Even their losses were quite close. I think the Sturgian Soldiers "Success" can be attributed to their head armor. They have the best helmet of the entire t3 roster, and when you get in mosh-pit fights, AI often spams overhead attacks aimed at the head, so having good head armor really makes a difference here.
- Sturgia has the second worst 2h infantry in the game. Throwing axes help a little bit here, but the ulfhedhar really are bottom of the barrel. 2H units are already a questionable niche, and this is one of the worst units of that niche. If you want a dedicated 2H unit, take the Aserai Mameluke Palace Guards. They are absolute tanks and were carving through Ulfhednar like they were nothing.
- Sturgia, predictably, has the worst heavy cavalry noble line. Part of this can be written off to mismatched stats. Another small thing to note, is that they are quite slow for heavy cav.
- Veterans are pretty great infantry. Not much to say here, the only unit that could beat them head-to-head was the Imperial Legionaries. Their stats and gear really do speak for themselves.
- Shock Troops are actually amazing? This was completely unexpected. On paper, they are inferior to the veterans in every way. Lower armor, lower stats, worse shields and chance of having a ****ty tiny shield. The dark horse here was their secondary weapon: a tier 5 war-razor and some advantageous AI. When the shock troops approach, they approach with their shields in front of them and axe drawn, which keeps them alive from projectiles, but once they get in melee range, they switch to their 2h war-razor. Remember when I said AI spam overheads once they get into a very tight lined battle? Well they start swinging these crazy 2h pole-arms overhead, which will easily 1 shot heavy infantry. They absolutely melt even the heaviest of infantry. The downside of this, of course, being that they swap their weapons when they reach the enemy line. This often means they take a fair number of losses before they get a chance to start carving through enemy infantry.
T5 Ranged:
T5 Missile Cav:
T3 Infantry:
T4 Infantry:
T5 2H Infantry:
T6 Noble Cav: https://youtu.be/r1HOV58oRB0
T5 Infantry (Veterans): https://youtu.be/lTIByzhtbFI
T5 Infantry (Shock): https://youtu.be/7a3WGDTP9Pg
Shock Troops vs Imperial Elite Cataphracts: https://youtu.be/LVXL-NccUIk
It turns out, Shock Troops can beat Imperial Elite Cataphracts in a 1 to 1 ratio.
These units are absolute monsters, now I know why they have such low armor and stats. The t5 war-razor is just insane. This changes things.
(But still please fix the Spearmen, Ulfhednar and Druzhinniks, they really are atrocious).
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By @Androme1
I want to start of by saying that Bannerlord is everything I expected it to be and has so far been extremely fun to play despite the (expected) hiccups, and there's no gaming experience I'd rather have than early acess janky release of a game I've been waiting for years to play, and would like to congratulate Taleworlds on the massive success that Bannerlord is and thank them in advance for the upcoming decade of Bannerlord.
Now, however, time for feedback, that is after all what Early Access is about:
Every aspect of the Sturgian faction is lackluster, and the behaviour of Raganvad makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Resulting in the faction being the overwhelmingly worst performing faction in the Singleplayer campaign.
I will first outline what I believe are the problems with Sturgia, later on further below I will be writing about suggestions and solutions that I believe would help alleviate some of these issues.
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TROOPS
- Sturgia currently contains the highest amount of troops with the wrong skill/proficiency distribution. Not only was this bad enough, but now that AI competency is directly tied to their skill/proficiency with any given weapon, the latest update made the Sturgian troop AI even worse than it was before, as if it wasn't the worst to begin with. This results in non-simulated battles resulting in either defeats or pyrrhic victories. It is virtually impossible to secure a close/resounding victory as Sturgia in non-simulated battles.
- Sturgia performs the worst in simulated battles (i.e auto-calculated battles) due to various different reasons which I will go into more detail further below, but it is a combination of having the worst economy in the game, the worst geography in the game, and the worst troop quality in the game, due to continous defeats, never allowing lords to level up their troops, resulting in Sturgian armies almost always consisting to 90% of Recruits and nothing else.
- The quality of the equipment worn by the Sturgian troops is the worst in the game aswell. One example being the weapons, for example Veteran Warrior has a short and low damage axe, and Shock Troop has some sort of Glaive (which doesn't even make much sense for the faction) which is completely useless because formations seemed to be unoptimized and doesn't allow proper use of large weapons. Their equipment, despite having worse stats, are also the heaviest in the game, resulting in the supposed-Infantry faction having the slowest moving Infantry in the game. Shields are also the worst despite offering the best form, but having the worst stats. The best Sturgian shield is the "Heavy Round Shield" which is a tier 3 shield which has roughly ~33% less HP than high tier shields of other factions.
- The Lords skills and proficiences are all wasted because for some reason they are given a bow and arrow (?) and mounted, instead of fighting either with the melee cavalry or with the infantry.
- Noble troops are virtually never used, thus the Sturgian army (as if 90% consisting of Recruits wasn't bad enough) isn't complemented with the Druzhinniks that it sorely needs.
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RAGANVAD
- I'll start of by saying that I very much like that the different rulers have different personalities, and I very much remember how Raganvad was described in the Sturgia blog released way back, so I would have no issues with Raganvad being a bit of a troublemaker that easily irritates his vassals, but there needs to be some reason to his actions and his actions also needs to not needlessly endanger the existence of Sturgia within the first year of the game beginning.
- My understanding is that Raganvad has a "Warmonger AI" setting enabled for him, which makes him likely to declare war on other factions. This behaviour combined with the fact that Sturgia has the lowest quality troops, the worst economy and the worst geography, makes Sturgia get completely obliterated even in a 1vs1, let alone a 1vX.
In my recent game, Raganvad declared war on: Vlandia, Battania, Northern Empire, Western Empire, Khuzaits. None of these factions declared war on us, it was Raganvad who declared war on them. From almost day 1 of starting this playthrough, it was constant non-stop war for roughly 300-400 days. And despite eventually building a very strong character, good tactical knowledge of the battlefield and a good party with high quality troops, and defeating lord after lord (I probably captured lords about 50 times during the 300-400 day playthrough), this was not enough to turn the tide of war because we were simply at war with too many factions at once.
- Raganvad also seems to have a tendency to not be generous with the (few) fiefs that we have. Despite already owning a city, he just keeps hoarding fiefs for himself, causing clans to leave the kingdom and join the enemy, worsening the already downward spiral even further. He's also a fan of overruling kingdom laws proposed that would increase militia production during times of war, but only lets through laws which in one way or another enriches him personally to the detriment of others.
- All of the above mentioned facts combined makes Raganvad not only the worst leader in the game, but the worst leader in the game for the worst faction with the worst troops with the worst economy with the worst geography.
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ECONOMY & GEOGRAPHY
- Sturgias geography is unique in that it's split across two landmasses with only a tiny stone bridge connecting the two, and also having a castle and a town completely isolated from everything else that requires a long trek to reach (Revyl), and not only that, but also Sturgia is unique in that it has a castle that is completely surrounded by other factions, on a landmass not connected to "mainland" Sturgia (Nevyansk Castle).
Combine this with the fact that the trek from Tyal to anywhere else is massive, and from Revyl to anywhere else is massive, and put snow on top of it all which slows down movement, and you've got a recipe for disaster just waiting to be exploited by more well off factions.
- With longer distances from settlements to towns, and slowed movement speed due to being heavily forested and snowy, peasants take ages to reach Sturgian towns, delaying any potential positive economic effect they might've had on the town, while other factions economies are developing at a much faster pace. These factors also makes it so that it is virtually impossible to reach anywhere in time if they are under attack, so raids on Sturgian settlements are almost always successful, as are sieges.
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SUGGESTIONS & SOLUTIONS
- To begin with, the faulty allocation of weapon proficiencies needs to be corrected, some examples include but are not limited to: Sturgian Spearmen having worse Polearm stat than the unit they upgraded from. Sturgian Druzhinniks having low Polearm stat and high Bow stat despite using a Polearm and not a Bow. Sturgian Shock Troop having tier 4 stats as opposed to tier 5 stats that they're supposed to have, etc. .
- The equipment quality used by the Sturgians needs to be dramatically increased. You can achieve this multiple ways, one example: The equipment they use can use the same models and everything as the equipment that the player has access to, but that doesn't mean they need to be the exact same. You can have two copies of the same helmet, with one being available to the player, and one only being available to specific AI units to spawn with, this way you can buff the AI version of the item while not making it so that a specific factions equipment ends up being overpowered. TLDR: Buff the stats of the items used by Sturgian infantry units.
- Whatever is causing the issue/snowball effect of Sturgian armies consisting to 90% of Sturgian recruits, needs to be remedied. Without this fixed, nothing else will even matter. I personally suspect this is simply largely due to Lords having few opportunities to level up their armies, but especially for factions that are victims of snowballing, their units simply all die before the Lord gets any chance at upgrading them.
I altered this suggestion, Inspired by input from @dphilostrate in this thread:
- Remove the 'Ulfhednar' and replace it with a unit called "Sturgian Vaegir Guard". There's in-game lore to actually back this up (as opposed to the "Ulfhednar"), and makes perfect sense as an upgrade to the "Sturgian Berserker". The Vaegir Guard served as elite bodyguards to Calradian emperors, within the lifetime of adult-aged men that the game takes place in. As opposed to the lightly armoured Sturgian Ulfhednar, the Sturgian Vaegir Guard should be Moderately/Heavily-armoured (Imperial Armour + some bear furs to keep influence from the 'Berserker'), and use a Two-Handed Axe.
NOTE: See further down for more troop tree suggestions.
- All Sturgian troops needs to use round shields as opposed to tear-shaped/kite shields in order to function better in a Shieldwall formation.
- The AI's capabilities to fight in a Shieldwall needs to be increased, currently large weapons are not very functional in a Shieldwall, and this is perhaps intended, but this also applies to some degree to medium-sized weapons aswell as sometimes to smaller weapons. This really hampers the ability of the Sturgians to be an effective infantry force.
- The stats on round shields of Sturgian origin needs to be buffed, buff all of their stats to make them on par with other factions, most importantly their health.
- Remove Bows & Arrows from Sturgian Lords, and in my opinion have them fight alongside the infantry. There isn't nearly enough melee cavalry for the Sturgians for the Lords to be fighting alongside. Either the amount of Druzhinniks in Sturgian Lords armies needs to be increased in order to better protect the Lords, or the Lords need to fight alongside the Infantry.
- Raganvad needs to have his Warmonger AI removed. (If this is even a thing, maybe his warlust is just a bug?)
- Sturgian economy, besides the changes to the geography of Sturgia, also needs a buff in the resource department. It was mentioned in the blog post regarding Sturgia that they have alot of bog iron naturally available in their lands. Would it then not make sense for Sturgia to have more than just one (?) village producing iron ore? Replace some of the grain producing villages to produce iron ore instead.
- Sturgian cultural benefit (less movement speed penalty in snow) needs to be buffed to no movement speed penalty and also apply to all parties of Sturgian culture (peasants, lords, etc. .)
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SUGGESTIONS REGARDING GEOGRAPHY.
I realize altering major parts of the world map at this point is perhaps too late, but perhaps just a few minor alterations along with moving a few cities/castles/villages a little bit?
- The landmass on which Revyl sits needs to be altered so it's closer to Varcheg and easier to reach without the narrow trek filled with bandits that it currently is. The distance between Omor and Varcheg also needs to be reduced, preferably just shrink the entire western part of Sturgian lands and squish it closer to Omor.
- There needs to be more than one narrow passage to pass from western into eastern Sturgia.
- Nevyansk Castle needs to be completely relocated. There's a Battanian castle that's bordering Sturgian lands nearby, just switch the places of these two castles with eachother so Nevyansk castle is closer to Mazhadan castle.
- There needs to be some castles between the Khuzait lands and Tyal, and Tyal also needs to be more easier to reach from the Varnovapol/Sibir area. Villagers journeys from the villages between these two areas also needs to be made safer so they will more easily be able to reach the towns.
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ALTERNATIVE BASIC TROOP TREE SUGGESTION TO ROUND OUT STURGIAN TROOP TREE BETTER
Some of these suggestions run counter to some previous suggestions further up in the thread. This is only meant to serve as inspiration, or as an either/or situation compared to suggestions further up in the thread. I believe multiple approaches to balancing Sturgia are possible.
Regular tree:
- Sturgian Recruit -> Sturgian Soldier (Infantry) -> Sturgian Veteran Soldier -> Sturgian Warrior (1H+Shield) -> Sturgian Veteran Warrior (Heavy Infantry 1H Sword/Axe + Spear + Throwing + Shield)
- Sturgian Recruit -> Sturgian Soldier (Infantry) -> Sturgian Veteran Soldier -> Sturgian Vanguard (2H+1H+Shield) -> Sturgian Veteran Vanguard (Heavy Infantry 2H Axe + Throwing + 1H Axe + Shield)
- Sturgian Recruit -> Sturgian Woodsman (Throwing) -> Sturgian Hunter (Archer) -> Sturgian Archer -> Sturgian Veteran Archer (Heavily armoured mediocre Archer Bow + Arrows + 2H Sword/Axe)
- Sturgian Recruit -> Sturgian Woodsman (Throwing) -> Sturgian Brigand (Cavalry) -> Sturgian Raider -> Sturgian Veteran Raider (Mediocre Cavalry Spear + 1H Sword/Axe + Shield)
LOGIC: As you can see, "Shock Troop" and "Ulfhednar" are gone and kinda combined into the new "Vanguard", this is because both of those troops were performing underwhelmingly and so just having one heavily armoured 2H+1H+Shield+Thrower just fills that purpose better. The Vanguard would of course be differentiated from the Warrior by having lower 1H and Throwing skill and have higher Athlethics and 2H, the Vanguard would also exclusively use Axes so they could be employed when you need to specifically counter shields.
The Sturgian archers are not meant to be amongst the best in the game, actually they should honestly be the worst in the game in terms of their ranged offensive capabilities, but they need to have something going for them, right? So why not make their melee skills better than most other archer units, while also giving them pretty good armor? This would make them rather durable as infantry, as Sturgia is intended to be good at.
The skirmisher Brigand cavalry is gone and replaced with the Raider melee cavalry. This is mostly because it seems Taleworlds is intent on having Lords spawn on Horseback, and so Sturgian lords should have better protection from the units around them. Melee cavalry achieves that job much better.
Noble tree:
- Sturgian Adventurer (Infantry) -> Sturgian Veteran Adventurer -> Sturgian Druzhinnik -> Sturgian Veteran Druzhinnik -> Sturgian Elite Druzhinnik -> Sturgian Druzhinnik Champion (All-around strongest infantry unit in the game.)
- Can spawn with various different loadouts:
- 1) 1H Sword/Axe + Throwing + Shield.
- 2) 1H Sword/Axe + Spear + Shield.
- 3) 1H Sword/Axe + 2H Sword/Axe + Shield.
LOGIC: Sturgia needs an overwhelmingly powerful infantry unit as their best troop. Which is supposed to be the factions strength. Honestly I don't have much against a Horseback Druzhinnik, but it just seems wasted since they would be so alone as melee cavalry for Sturgia anyways. The argument could be made that they would make more sense if my suggestions were implemented since then Sturgia would have the Raider melee cavalry line to complement the Horseback Druzhinnik, but I don't know. I think sticking with mediocre Cavalry (Raiders) and doubling down on Sturgias infantry is the better route.
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GOOD POST BY ANOTHER USER REGARDING STURGIAS ECONOMY:
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By @MisterDanny8
Sturgian archers beat out Sturgian spearmen in a 50 v 50 custom battle. I tested it and 10 out of 10 times the archers won by only using the charge and hold fire commands, not a single arrow shot. People think that because Sturgians are pretty much the Nords that they would have the best infantry. That is only true for the final tier of infantry. The rest of the infantry are freakishly under armored, so they need big shields to keep themselves alive but for some reason the Sturgian spearmean have a much smaller shield then the tier below them. The Sturgian soldier. It's ridiculous how tier 4 infantry have a small shield and weak armor and poor polearm skill. Sturgian spearmen need a big buff because against other infantry in custom battle they lose by a lot pretty much every time. give them armor and a big round shield. And Sturgian infantry in general need more armor, i can't find out a good way to use their infantry if they are so fragile.
And here is a video of me showing them losing to archers.The other tests were not as close as whats in the video
Video evidence
So do you understand now what im trying to say and why you cant just compare troops like this. Because every troop has their specialty weakness and strength for what they are good at and if they arent used as such they are gonna be bad, So yeah i can buy the spear man in some way but for some weird reason even if they suck as you shown here and i can agree.... hes still surviving during big battles gains xp and becomes a Bad ass veteran or chock trooper at the same rate as the other factions when ive been playing em. So all im saying be very careful for what you wish for because if you gonna boost the whole Sturg army im not gonna find it funny to play that OP faction and rip Vladian and Khuzit arses like an toothpick. Well on the other hand Battania need all the help they can because they have been being raped since day one (well perhaps they got a chunk of Empire but completely wiped in the end) after all my playthrus except when i was one of em which was a ****ing PTSD of its kind. And Battania is my favorite faction. But that doesnt mean they are bad, not at all. Its because they are straight in the middle of everyone who attacks em from all sides or they starting it with others right in the middle hamburger hill. Also they got crazy commanders like most factions capturing bases far away which doesnt make any strategical purposes at all...well sometimes they do have cool diversion plans who works but most of the time its just a waste.... And Vladia has a lot of resources and tactical placed on the map with only like 2-3 entrys. Same goes for Khuzits which have their back free. So before we wish something that gonna take work for the devs to tweak then having to tweak it back because people where to judgmental about it. Make really sure that youre right about it because its just waste of time when it could be done with something better....Just saying,
Ps. I mean im down for balancing and cant stand if something is really under performing against other factions but also with a grain of salt ofc Or if something is to OP because i want a good game all in all. How ever when i cant see what others are saying in my many campaigns im reacting and saying hey are you really sure about this and are you sure youre really have understood em not being to fast on it. Ive been there to before and sometimes still doing wrong judgements. But ive learned to at least try to dig in before saying something just because i got frustrated and didnt had the time to learn why or what it is im handling atm
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Thats funny because Sturgia is objectively terrible at everything. Their jav cav is terrible. Their infantry is terrible until they get to tier 5 - funny, their recruits tend to perform better than recruits of any other faction, but its not enough, because tier 2 infantry in all other factions and up is better. Ulfednar are a joke. Berserkers are better performing and better equipped at tier 4. Their noble units are better infantry than cavalry and can do well against other cavalry, but their broken stats make it so you're better off recruiting any other faction's cav units. Their speciality is mediocre in comparison to all other cavalry units. Cataphracts have the best armor in the game. Druzhiniiks? Near impossible to find among any AI lord in Sturgia. Sturgian infantry, in general, is so bad that even Battania's Wildlings are better. Their Veteran Warriors are decent, granted, but good luck with them surviving when their spearmen are abysmal. Same with their shock troops. Why give them bad armor? Their specialty is infantry, give them good armor at least. Armor in general throughout all sturgian units is lacking. Chainmail is rarely used if at all.
All you've mentioned are well balanced factions, Battania is amazing and can field pure archer armies that annihilate anything they touch, but its a challenge to reach critical mass. Their other units more than make up for the rarity of the fian. The Vlandians have good cavalry, meh infantry, and good sharpshooters. The Khuzaits are second to none the best horse archer faction, hands down, and always steamroll unless the empire gets lucky and wins the initial fights.
Sturgia needs many things. Fixed stats, a strait dividing Tyal from Khuzait lands making it so the only way into that peninsula is through Omor and then up to Balgard. Better armor across the board. Buff the spearmen. Give their noble line horses when they become varyags - and better armor. Remove the terrible jav cav line and give varyags javs instead. Yeet the ulfednar entirely. Give their fiefs a massive economic overhaul - fish is stupid and while it makes since they'd produce alot, at least give them fur or iron as a primary production - nobody has ever conquered the world with fishing empires. Its clear that while sturgians are almost the proto-nords and proto-vaegirs, don't give them huscarl units. That goes against their factions theme and gives them a massive identity crisis - save the nord units for the invasion you planned out in earlier dev blogs. In the meantime though, there is a happy medium. Instead of sea raiders upgrading into just druzhiniiks (which is weird that any bandit becomes a noble but i digress), have them upgrade into nord units as well with the disciplinarian trait. From there, go to thegn and then huscarl.
Ulfhednar and Berserker feel like they need to switch places honestly. Berserker means Bear-shirt and Ulfhednar means wolf-head right? Bear>wolf. The current Ulfhednar feels like a downgrade from Berserker and need to move down a tier, Berserker moves to top tier with their chainmail and bearpelt and maybe slightly better stat. Troop progression just makes more sense that way.
lol
Nope, google it and you'll understand...
Dr-Shinobi
Well thats your opinion and their archers and Cavs wasnt so terrible as ive shown in the videos..But you seem not to know what youre talking about when saying that ULFs are terrible and that Berserkers are much better..
Ok so im gonna show you how they work as a team one day in real campaign battle instead. Doing it in Realism/challanging mode
Since im kicking ass in there and been conquering Caldaria twice (with only Sturg troops) which this game is about. And hey they are even doing good on their own while my last 3rd play thru with Sturgs was just being a smith doing practically nothing for em except selling swords and they hold everything on their own (maybe i killed one or two lords outside disturbing my work). Was in war with all factions almost at the same time, They Conquered half Battania, was in almost constant war with Vladians, Hold Of the Khuzaits in the east at the same time and conquered some Parts of both Empires as well..So yeah they must be bad at what they are doing and having **** forces. I just dont see what youre speculating right now since they seem to working just fine for me under all playthrus ive been doing and balanced as the other factions ive been doing as well. If i can take an army along with others and crush the enemies ( perhaps not all the time) but still can take on against an army that was 200+ in realistic/challanging mode then i think they are enough as a force to be reckoned. Sure all playthrus are not gonna look the same which is what M&B should look like. Some will struggle more in some starts then others. However thats not the case with Vladia, Khuz and Battania at the moment. Since Battania always gets wiped (since day one of this production) in the end and Vlads and Khuz are usually dominating like the good old days with Swadia but they have been seen kicked out from the North many times to in the past. Even from behold and sit down now.... the Rhodoks! (which on paper are terrible attackers but excellent defenders)....PS dont forget to watch the videos ive posted in the past and present here in comment section
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Dr-Shinobi
Unfortunatly i cant show the other forces since im not using mods but im gonna see if i can find it. If its Enchanced Battletest it doest seem to be up to date with 1.2 or not even 1.1 so cant do this as it stands right now with correctness But when it does im gonna show you the other soldiers to in action and see if they get the same results as being shown here. Ulf test was just awefull to see not using throwing axes same went for the infantry not using shields getting javelined half their lines before battle
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royalpaste
Recruit
you seem to be the only guy fighting tooth and nail that sturgia is in fact not hilariously under powered. every game i let them do their own thing they lose all cities under 10 years. their also the most common faction i always see in the capture feed. they 100% need help and alot of it. ive not seen them capture a city once unless it was already sieged and had 100 in the garrison. and literally every faction can do 1v10's i can take 50 fians and crush a 300 man army with ease, its because every army is 90% recruits.even a stack of t3 looters could beat any faction.
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Dr-Shinobi
Yeah its very strange and seems were playing two different games for sure Have you played atleast 3 campaigns with em or watching their progress during 10 others not using mods ?. And yeah im doing it since i dont want it to be a waste of time for the devs (and me as well since i could be more focusing at the game finding bugs and giving opinions polishing it) making em OP since there isnt this much problem with em as people are stating! some are even blatantly rubbish (especially when it comes to archers being the worst). Its just that they dont know how to use their troops correctly in my opinion. But idk ive must been seing **** under my 360 hours of game play and just lying to you all right now.. yeah mb im a troll allright...dont listen to that crazy old veteran drunk in the corner, spitting out warstories from memories we havnt seen. Fking snowflakes
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Dr-Shinobi
I found a better proof that archers still rocks against a more "balanced team on the meter" since they totally wasted Imperial archers in my last 3 videos....Sturg vs Aserai... So for whoever says Sturgs has the weakest archers in the game is just new to the game not knowing how to move their troops right or just bull****ting you spreading ****e stories at the inn
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Dr-Shinobi
Ive made a more reckless tight formation move giving the enemies the upper hand as well with an really bad "just woke up morning after 20 hours gaming and 6 hours sleep" duel finishing fight against their commander hiding ^^ So yeah they really need to buff em for sure since they are both wrecking Imperials and Aserai archers but seems people want just more
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royalpaste
Recruit
ive played about 4 with them and 5 not. this is about more than the player...guess you are playing a different game then me, their ai has issues, their location has issues, everything about them has issues. if you join one of their armies chances are ragavand or whoever is gonna immediately send them to charge, killing your calv and infantry cause lol who needs shield wall. only mod i have is the stat fix mod because with out it druz's cant hit anything with the troop ai changes.
Dr-Shinobi
Every faction has problem with their commanders like this...Its not just a Sturg thing (sometimes ive even seen em turn it around being undermanned when i t hought the battle was lost). But yes seems we are playing two different games.or it could be that Sturg playstyle just isnt your style.. And their location is fine for me at the moment. They have 2 entrances to their center main land along with tight mountains and gaps going in + snow all the time which they can utialize in combat as an advantage (if that works properly at the moment im not sure really since its hard to tell and i havent "tested it properly" either). Whats so disadvantage about that ? From a strategical point thats a ****ing fortress. And have you seen Varmovapols defenses ?! Got damn awesome place. Buff T4 spear men slightly and it should be alright in my book but you dare take the Ulfbears (wolfskinbears which should have spears but who cares, its a game) away from me!!!! then were at war!!! beacuse they have been wrecking **** for me in the past and deserves all respect! - Pff Vladian scrubs coming in here thinking they are almighty just pushing charge button and thinks thats a proper battle (-> this was not ment personally for you Royalpasta btw)
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Dr-Shinobi
So 50 fians against 300 is 16.6% if im not wrong and this should be right setup then....So on paper no, fians are not good as you stated
even if i know what youre talking about (they are ****ing awesome)! So what does this say to you ? To me it says that tests are pointless as proof without proper tactics and yourself included,,, even then cant be really correct since there will always be small mistakes here and there, different terrains and some units will perform better then others in right situations at the right time
Ps oh and i finally captured that sound bugg in the end ive been reporting for so long about and hope they are gonna see this.
-Ill eat your liver comment lol there are some golden in this one to-
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Dr-Shinobi
and heres a pic of Sturg archers kicking Vladian crossbowmen arses to mixed with cqc but was tight for sure. So it seems the only archers that can take on sturg archers are Battanian...So yeah they are surely having the worst archers in game
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royalpaste
Recruit
you're on this vendetta to prove everyone wrong, thats not even related to the topic and you had to prove me wrong. me and many others find sturgia to extremely underwhelming. from what others have found too the code for how autocalc works (how ai fight each other) is heavily skewed out of sturgia's favour. this isnt about people not "gitting gud" at tactics, sturgia just has issues beyond the just the troops.
Dr-Shinobi
didnt you read that i totally love the Battanian heroes and that i know they are ****ing strong. That i know its possible but you didnt understand my statement of the post, but since you where the one that brought it up in the middle of nowhere then i mixed it in and what i made was also to show like the Op did the non reality. That the videos the OP is showing and that some statements are wrong except for the one of the spear men unit (except the one when he sacrificed a quarter of his troops to javelins not having shields up) and that people gonna blindly fall so easily in to this because they dont know how to handle em (the other troops that is). And no im not on an vendetta mode, im ****ing making a statement and proving that they dont need to be buffed that much and its a mistake as well as time consuming if they gonna choose to do so.
Op also stated that their Archers are one of the worst build ones as well as many here did (like youre saying is everyone) say the same thing, that they have the worst arches in game. But ive proven them wrong in many videos kicking all factions arse except Battania which i know they will loose against but still you want to buff em ? So then do you find it creditable of em saying that the whole Sturgs sucks right now except T5s ?
But some seems to be having to much thick brains and raising their pitchforks without even thinking it thru nor understood how they really works in the bigger scheme of things also how their whole roaster is compared to the others because they also have flaws. But guess some are to lazy to see longer then their own nose.
And yes ive seen AI fight each other many times to and they still can win battles even when they are undermanned so idk what youre talking about. And yes sometimes they loose to! but that must be awe full indeed, must be fixed since something must be wrong
To be mentioned i have nothing against OP and i appreciate his work He was the one making me realize something about an spear men unit i didnt see as an problem in game before but do now.
How ever next time really get to know your faction before youre making an full on statement like this and dont sloppy test your troops like this because youre giving out the wrong picture of em.... play em as intended. -Because you cant fight with an rouge as an warrior-
So yeah because i know devs can fall in to stupid **** like this then having to rework this or rework other things as well later on just to keep the balance from snowballs..Thats why im stepping in to give you and em perspectives before its to late.
But i mean they have already ****ed up armor system atm making you a walking tank, companions cost as much as 3 pieces of coal and Realism mode is becoming to easy so who knows what casual players comes up with next...
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Dr-Shinobi, we're not talking about necessarily the players capability to turn the tide of a fight in their favour, but also how Sturgia performs both overall as a faction against the other factions, but also in simulated and non-simulated battles involving and not involving the player. In all of these regards Sturgia is currently the worst faction.
A forum moderator is taking many threads about feedback for Sturgia and putting them into one. He used your 'thread', but used my thread title.
A forum moderator is taking many threads about feedback for Sturgia and putting them into one. He used your 'thread', but used my thread title.
I'd edit my thread, but it no longer exists and was merged with others into this 
Anyways, here are some changes with the latest patch:
- Sturgian troops now all use round shields, this should increase their overall combat performance, especially in shield wall formation since the round design is the superior design in terms of coverage. Nice!
- Sturgian troops now have correct skill allocations, the Spearman has higher Polearm skill than the Soldier, the Druzhinniks now correctly have high Polearm skill as opposed to Bow, and the Shock Troop has abnormally high Polearm skill for non-noble tier 5 unit to compensate for the lack of a shield. Very good! I would personally just still merge the Ulfhednar and Shock Troop into a new 2H+1H+SHIELD+THROW unit though (compensated with lower weapon skills, or just no throwing weapon).
I haven't played with the new patch yet so I'll try again and see how things are, they will likely be for the better.
Now, a new problem has been discovered. Another person elsewhere posted this:
Very simple to fix: Increase quality of Sturgia and Aserai party templates. And give Sturgia, Aserai and Khuzait 'noble' recruits in the party templates.
Anyways, here are some changes with the latest patch:
- Sturgian troops now all use round shields, this should increase their overall combat performance, especially in shield wall formation since the round design is the superior design in terms of coverage. Nice!
- Sturgian troops now have correct skill allocations, the Spearman has higher Polearm skill than the Soldier, the Druzhinniks now correctly have high Polearm skill as opposed to Bow, and the Shock Troop has abnormally high Polearm skill for non-noble tier 5 unit to compensate for the lack of a shield. Very good! I would personally just still merge the Ulfhednar and Shock Troop into a new 2H+1H+SHIELD+THROW unit though (compensated with lower weapon skills, or just no throwing weapon).
I haven't played with the new patch yet so I'll try again and see how things are, they will likely be for the better.
Now, a new problem has been discovered. Another person elsewhere posted this:
Very simple to fix: Increase quality of Sturgia and Aserai party templates. And give Sturgia, Aserai and Khuzait 'noble' recruits in the party templates.
