RIP MP

[helari]

It would be interesting to see the gameplay data TW is trying to collect (it was probably used to decide on buffing battanias troop counts for captain at least).

What makes it harder is that the game probably has to be also balanced around how the casual players are playing it instead of just pros so the class and weapon performance may be different in the big picture because some weapons or classes might be unattractive or hard to use for the majority of players while others might get more mileage out of them.

Faction win rates or class kdr stats are kind of hard to go on bc theyre supposed to be somewhat asymmetrical requiring different tactics or specialisations. What if the average Bannerlord player just happens to main infantry (or w/e they statistically main) not because of true balance reasons but also superficial reasons like how the class looks or feels?

 

[AxiosXiphos]

That explains a lot.

I also played more, equal to or at least tonnes of native, persistent world, cRPG, Bello Civli, neoGK, Viking Conquest, Nord Invasion / Full Invasion and 100 others (no doubt many I have since forgotten). With my playtime this is very obvious and takes someone being desperate to find a flaw to try and make that one.

Please give up now DainMorgot. Any child can carry on arguing for the rest of time, takes a man or woman to stand up - admit they were wrong and carry on with dignity. I forgive your error - you made a quick assessment on limited information. Now lets just move on and actually talk about the OP.

To shamelessly quote myself:

If a team can beat three other teams 6-0, and then lose the fourth match 0-6, either skill levels are extremely varied (which I highly doubt) or something is very wrong with the gamemode's design.
My comment above highlights a part of Skirmish's design that is, by definition, snowballing. I agree with you, Tork, that that's unlikely to be the only cause of these extreme tournament results, but the fact that snowballing exists doesn't need to be empirically proven when the gamemode's fundamental design showcases it.

This is a fundamental problem with any progression based competitive game though.

Consider this example:

DOTA - In a match of DOTA your team gains levels, items and traits everytime it defeats the enemy team in a team battle. Now there are various ways of gaining these items - however if the better team wins an early team fight - they then have an advantage for the next one. If they win that one aswell they then have twice the advantage - possibly enough to win the game there and then. Now M&B very obviously doesn't have the other options for progression that DOTA has (killing creeps, farming lanes etc) but the team that gets the advantage early game is normally the team the wins late game. In situations where this does not occur it is typically because the other team got unlucky and were in fact superior at the game.

Now you can say that the class system exacerbates this issue - in fact it clearly does. However a warband customisation system does this just as much - perhaps even worse. In Warband the team with advantage can load up with the best gear, armour and weapons - they have an advantage in all fields and can stack these to an insane level. Imagine Skirmish mode in warband? One team using starter kit and the other bedecked in cuir bouilli, great helms, great swords and shield/sword of max level. Yes they may be a little slow but they will have an astronomical advantage over a team of leather-shirts.

Now in bannerlord it clearly needs work - and this is understandable but the warband system does not curve snowballing and these issues are persistent in all progression based competiive games.

 

[DainMorgot]

Now in bannerlord it clearly needs work - and this is understandable but the warband system does not curve snowballing and these issues are persistent in all progression based competiive games.

Yes it does. If you actually played warband MP in those 3k hours you have and played in tournaments, or if you was a good player at all which you are not, you would know how much more controlled was the snowball of warband compared to the trash class system of BL. Of course, combat plays a massive role aswell since in BL units need about 40 slashes to die and the meta is developing already to using the kick-faster swing glitch. Classes are fine for bad players or those who do not want to put effort, but its not okay for anyone who wants depth. And looks like the majority wants depth and does not like the game considering nobody plays online. (just now, only 30 people in queue lmao).

Imagine Skirmish mode in warband?

No because skirmish is actually horrible. It's a glorified team deathmatch.

 

[Younes]

I also played more, equal to or at least tonnes of native, persistent world, cRPG, Bello Civli, neoGK, Viking Conquest, Nord Invasion / Full Invasion and 100 others (no doubt many I have since forgotten). With my playtime this is very obvious and takes someone being desperate to find a flaw to try and make that one.

Please give up now DainMorgot. Any child can carry on arguing for the rest of time, takes a man or woman to stand up - admit they were wrong and carry on with dignity. I forgive your error - you made a quick assessment on limited information. Now lets just move on and actually talk about the OP.



This is a fundamental problem with any progression based competitive game though.

Consider this example:

DOTA - In a match of DOTA your team gains levels, items and traits everytime it defeats the enemy team in a team battle. Now there are various ways of gaining these items - however if the better team wins an early team fight - they then have an advantage for the next one. If they win that one aswell they then have twice the advantage - possibly enough to win the game there and then. Now M&B very obviously doesn't have the other options for progression that DOTA has (killing creeps, farming lanes etc) but the team that gets the advantage early game is normally the team the wins late game. In situations where this does not occur it is typically because the other team got unlucky and were in fact superior at the game.

Now you can say that the class system exacerbates this issue - in fact it clearly does. However a warband customisation system does this just as much - perhaps even worse. In Warband the team with advantage can load up with the best gear, armour and weapons - they have an advantage in all fields and can stack these to an insane level. Imagine Skirmish mode in warband? One team using starter kit and the other bedecked in cuir bouilli, great helms, great swords and shield/sword of max level. Yes they may be a little slow but they will have an astronomical advantage over a team of leather-shirts.

Now in bannerlord it clearly needs work - and this is understandable but the warband system does not curve snowballing and these issues are persistent in all progression based competiive games.

A lot of us are not pushing for the warband customization in skirmish and capitain. Its being pushed for large scale gamemodes which are the core of mount and blade.

You clearly have not read the forums in a while.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Yes it does. If you actually played warband MP in those 3k hours you have and played in tournaments, or if you was a good player at all which you are not, you would know how much more controlled was the snowball of warband compared to the trash class system of BL. Of course, combat plays a massive role aswell since in BL units need about 40 slashes to die and the meta is developing already to using the kick-faster swing glitch. Classes are fine for bad players or those who do not want to put effort, but its not okay for anyone who wants depth. And looks like the majority wants depth and does not like the game considering nobody plays online. (just now, only 30 people in queue lmao).



No because skirmish is actually horrible. It's a glorified team deathmatch.

DainMargot you continue to try to harass me instead of discussing the post. You have absolutely no information on my game skill whatsoever beyond my time in the game. You throw out insults with no grounds, no logic and no sense. You have no justification to believe I am good or bad at the game - all you know is I have played a lot.

If you continue to act like a child I will just report you. Now either discuss the topic or stop posting.

In regard to the actual content of your post;

Snowballing was very easy to abuse in warband. To the point you could bring multiple high tier weapons and hand them out like candy floss to your team.

Agreed. The kick-swing glitch should be fixed - its certainly a problem for newer players to deal with. It's not something I've worried about but is also irrelevant to the class system.

 

[Younes]

Snowballing is something only really relevant to things like skirmish or captain, its completely different for gamemodes that empathize on large scale battles.

Again, skirmish and captain have a class system that (barley) works because it was designed around it.
Please try applying the same to anything that is large scale and you will see that the snowballing isn't an issue.

Siege has some terrible issues with the perk system where perks become irrelevant in one mode but good in the other. If you're honestly going to ignore this fact i can't help you.

 

[DainMorgot]

DainMargot you continue to try to harass me instead of discussing the post. You have absolutely no information on my game skill whatsoever beyond my time in the game. You throw out insults with no grounds, no logic and no sense. You have no justification to believe I am good or bad at the game - all you know is I have played a lot.

If you continue to act like a child I will just report you. Now either discuss the topic or stop posting.

In regard to the actual content of your post;

Snowballing was very easy to abuse in warband. To the point you could bring multiple high tier weapons and hand them out like candy floss to your team.

Agreed. The kick-swing glitch should be fixed - its certainly a problem for newer players to deal with. It's not something I've worried about but is also irrelevant to the class system.

I'm not harrassing you at all, all I'm saying is that you have no idea what you are talking about. I dont need information about your skill, I've seen before a few weeks in bannerlord's skirmish. Feel free to report me.

Your point about warband's snowballing is the most basic and non-effort excuse that most of you class supporters give. It's pathetic really. Especially when we have heavy cav in Skirmish being handed out to every kid who does not deserve it. Or any high tier troop in general.

Kick is not a new player's problem. It's a general problem. It works on the best easily because its too easy to kick someone no matter what you do.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

I've seen before a few weeks in bannerlord's skirmish.

What? This sentence makes no sense.

because its too easy to kick someone no matter what you do.

Where have I heard comments like that before...

 

[Caps]

Kick is not a new player's problem. It's a general problem. It works on the best easily because its too easy to kick someone no matter what you do.

Its not easy to kick on certain condition, on some its even impossible. Sometimes only one faction has access to that powerful tool, whoever gets it is random. It definitely needs to be reworked.

 

[Younes]

The crouch swing glitch should also be fixed.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Snowballing is something only really relevant to things like skirmish or captain, its completely different for gamemodes that empathize on large scale battles.

Again, skirmish and captain have a class system that (barley) works because it was designed around it.
Please try applying the same to anything that is large scale and you will see that the snowballing isn't an issue.

Siege has some terrible issues with the perk system where perks become irrelevant in one mode but good in the other. If you're honestly going to ignore this fact i can't help you.

But in this case - what does Warband style equipment options offer a battle or large TDM game that bannerlords classes doesn't? I'll accept the cosmetic point - but TW said they are working on skins which should solve that point.

In regard to siege I think classes are a great addition - heavy archers and heavy cavalry as reward classes makes much more sense then half the server darting around on horseback. I don't understand your concern here so please elaborate?

The crouch swing glitch should also be fixed.

All glitches and abuses should be fixed - that's not in debate. But that's a bug issue not a design one.

 

[Younes]

But in this case - what does Warband style equipment options offer a battle or large TDM game that bannerlords classes doesn't? I'll accept the cosmetic point - but TW said they are working on skins which should solve that point.

In regard to siege I think classes are a great addition - heavy archers and heavy cavalry as reward classes makes much more sense then half the server darting around on horseback. I don't understand your concern here so please elaborate?

It offers players the choice to play the game how they want to play the game which is what warband native did immensely good.

I will just quote what i said on the feedback reddit thread:

Spoiler

Have you ever thought that people may not want to take meaningful choices?

I mean i don't know how everyone plays their game, but for me while playing warband it was not about getting the best armor or the strongest weapon in the game.

It was about taking the exact opposite of that for me. The most stupid looking armor you could find no matter how powerful it was.

The class system you designed works for skirmish and captain, but those are gamemodes you specifically designed for the class system to work.

They work well and i'm sure if you improve it they will become great. But skirmish and captain are both gamemodes where taking meaningful choices is something you have to because they are small scale sort of battles.

Things like siege or battle don't have this, you are not meaningful in the great scheme of thing, you have a significant less impact on the team thus taking meaningful classes is less of an effect then skirmish or competitive.

Its boils down to something simple, should you force people to take meaningful classes ?

Skins are a whole different topic. Skins are very similar to what you would say warband customization in the literal sense of the word. But the general thing when warband customization is mentioned it also included the depth the armor gave. I'm talking localized damage, i'm talking proper money management and so forth.

The word "warband class system" or "customization" is more of a collective of following things:
=> Classes
=> Localized damage
=> Localized armor

 

[DainMorgot]

What? This sentence makes no sense.

Where have I heard comments like that before...

I meant to say ''I've seen YOU before'', it was a typo but still is the truth. You really did not do good in a series of skirmish matches, I thought you compete in tournaments dude.

Its not easy to kick on certain condition, on some its even impossible. Sometimes only one faction has access to that powerful tool, whoever gets it is random. It definitely needs to be reworked.

You can literally kick-slash any target who is blocking with minimal effort, even when he is backpedalling due to the speed penalty, especially if you have a taller character. It's literally the most cheesy and easy tactic to open up anyone. On top of that, you can kick + throw axes, kick + crossbow aswell. Not sure where you find the difficulty on that, the only time that is hard to kick someone is when they play the lulnavlion and they move around like ballerinas.

 

[Virthuss]

Sadly for East Asia the MP is clearly dying too. Because of the lack of player, you can be matchmade on a server where your ping will be 200 ms while others have around 50ms... And since leaving is now sanctioned, the multiplayer is totally dying

 

[ShakenSpeare]

I don't think we should go back to the Warband system of customization, or that we should keep Bannerlord's class system. It should be something completely different in my opinion, something that is sort of a polished mix between the two but done better. Not that it seems like it'll happen.

 

[Biyonik]

You can literally kick-slash any target who is blocking with minimal effort, even when he is backpedalling due to the speed penalty, especially if you have a taller character. It's literally the most cheesy and easy tactic to open up anyone. On top of that, you can kick + throw axes, kick + crossbow aswell. Not sure where you find the difficulty on that, the only time that is hard to kick someone is when they play the lulnavlion and they move around like ballerinas.
[/QUOTE]
The fact that kickslashing is literally the only option to open up an opponent makes things worse. Me and my pals clanwar on a regular basis and infantry vs infantry is basically who can kick better at this point.

 

[DainMorgot]

The fact that kickslashing is literally the only option to open up an opponent makes things worse. Me and my pals clanwar on a regular basis and infantry vs infantry is basically who can kick better at this point.

The most funny part is that kick/slash is not even a working mechanic. It's a glitch, literally. Kicking and then slashing does not allow you to slash someone due to the very small window, you have to hold an attack then kick, then move the mouse to the direction that you want to slash. The glitch is that it makes the animation faster so that is why you can actually hit someone after the kick when you do it the second way. That also works without even kicking someone. If you kick whole holding, the animation of the swing will be faster. So if I kick the air while holding, miss my kick and the enemy starts swinging I can still outslash him because of the accelerated animation. lmfao

 

[Biyonik]

The most funny part is that kick/slash is not even a working mechanic. It's a glitch, literally. Kicking and then slashing does not allow you to slash someone due to the very small window, you have to hold an attack then kick, then move the mouse to the direction that you want to slash. The glitch is that it makes the animation faster so that is why you can actually hit someone after the kick when you do it the second way. That also works without even kicking someone. If you kick whole holding, the animation of the swing will be faster. So if I kick the air while holding, miss my kick and the enemy starts swinging I can still outslash him because of the accelerated animation. lmfao

Yeah its actually pretty stupid but still its the only way to open up an opponent reliably

 

[AxiosXiphos]

I meant to say ''I've seen YOU before'', it was a typo but still is the truth. You really did not do good in a series of skirmish matches, I thought you compete in tournaments dude.


You can literally kick-slash any target who is blocking with minimal effort, even when he is backpedalling due to the speed penalty, especially if you have a taller character. It's literally the most cheesy and easy tactic to open up anyone. On top of that, you can kick + throw axes, kick + crossbow aswell. Not sure where you find the difficulty on that, the only time that is hard to kick someone is when they play the lulnavlion and they move around like ballerinas.

How strange - I haven't actually played a single game of skirmish since the beta as I'm far more invested in siege, captains, singleplayer and TDM now. I played 200 something games before release - I'm happy to give it a break. Weird - It almost sounds like you are lying...?

In Summary: Just stop. The desperation is becoming difficult to read....

Also you get that is the whole point of the kicking mechanic right? To open up blocks? You make it sound like some revolutionary new thing. It could use work certainly but it is nothing to do with the discussion we are supposed to be having. If someone is backpedalling often then they are a new player.

 

[Guaccmoleboy]

clearly none of yall actually played warband competitive... thread is full of b.s from both sides lmao