RIP MP

AxiosXiphos

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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I am among said people. While it is indeed true that unbalanced and buggy games are simply better with more player agency, I don't think anyone has said that the terrible premade Class System is the sole, or near-sole reason as to why the game is dying. But given the overwhelmingly negative response to the premade class system every time the issue is brought up, it's clear that premade classes are among the top 4 reasons as to why the game is dying, like we all said it would. Constant crasing, no custom servers, broken combat system, and premade classes would be the core reasons as to the decline. As to the statistical order of game-ruining they can be arranged in; nobody can say. My preferences *for why I don't want to play the game would be Broken Combat, Premade classes, with no custom servers and crashes being equal third.

The idea that someone like me that reviles the premade class system more than anything else in this game, is blaming the decline solely on this terrible class system, is a ridiculous strawman. I have yet to meet a single person that has said anything of the sort. And if they do exist, they're so small in number as to be completely irrelevant.

*edit
That's a reasonable response Sundeki and to be fair both yourself and Younes (and others) I will happily talk to because I'm more then willing to have an adult discussion about it. It just seems to me that there are bigger issues (like the crashing) that we could be talking about first.
 
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For example did you know that the Warband "classes" were actually not balanced - they did not have the same stats. Nord Huscarls had more health and more power strike value then Veagir spearmen. Thereby a huscarl with a scimitar (elite or not - I liked them both) was flat out more effective then a Veagir Spearmen with the same loadout?

Or that in Napoleonic Wars the Scottish Captain had 500 Two handed skill? However all two handers in that game were classed as polearms so in theory he could never use it - just a braveheart reference I guess.
I think this is a super good point. Most of the reason why so many people are upset about the class system rn is because bannerlord currently is just a "Medieval CS:GO" in terms of the multiplayer experience right now which is completely different from Warband that was all about - large servers, giant battles, and just overall chaos. I hosted several events and servers for Warband on various mods including NW, and as a server admin you could actually fix a lot of things about the game. You could change the stats for every piece of equipment serverside.

We need custom servers for Bannerlord ASAP in order to fix mutiplayer, and hopefully there will be just as much if not more customization possible than there was for warband.
 

Younes123

Sergeant Knight at Arms
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I mean it sort of does though doesn't it? If i'm willing to commit that much time to the game, join events, clans, tournaments, download mods, make my own mods, mod other mods then it does indicate that I both love the game and know EXACTLY why it was so great on so many levels. And for me none of them were particularly improved (or made worse) by the warband customisation - it just added very little to the formula one way or the other.

For example did you know that the Warband "classes" were actually not balanced - they did not have the same stats. Nord Huscarls had more health and more power strike value then Veagir spearmen. Thereby a huscarl with a scimitar (elite or not - I liked them both) was flat out more effective then a Veagir Spearmen with the same loadout?

Or that in Napoleonic Wars the Scottish Captain had 500 Two handed skill? However all two handers in that game were classed as polearms so in theory he could never use it - just a braveheart reference I guess.

It's stuff like that which no one ever bothers to mention - the Warband system was really quite broken. Fun but broken.

This has always been my issue with this argument - I really don't care about the class selection either way. It really makes very little difference to the game. I played the heck out of NW and that basically only had 4 very similar classes.

If they said tomorrow they were either never ever going to consider bringing back the warband system OR that they were going to immediately bring it back then I would be pretty apathetic either way. What annoys me is that people seem to think it's the end of the world for some reason despite barely being on my radar. Playing warband I made 2-3 different builds for each faction and then always played them - with scaling plans in mind for gold; I might as well had been playing pre-made classes because it wouldn't make a difference.
Have i ever called the warband system perfect? I never said the system was perfect but the issues you mention are easy to solve nonetheless so they are pretty irrelevant.

I played most of my time on NW, there is a massive difference between the two and you should feel embarrassed by still using this same argument. I didn't mind the class system in napoleonic wars because unlike bannerlord it fit the time period. You also seem to completely ignore the fact napoleonic wars had more unique classes like artillery, sappers, trumpets and it the latest update medics.

You're comparing oranges to apples.

You mention you only play with 2-3 builds but that's how you decide to play the game, giving people the choice on how they play the game is what made mount and blade multiplayer fun.

If you are playing with 2-3 builds what are you exactly complaining about in the end? You are losing nothing with having the warband customization back like you said. You said its not a difference so i don't see what you're arguing against?

You're nitpicking on issues on warband that are easy to solve by the devs, but decide to neglect the massive issues bannerlord has is that it?
 

RCC_God

Sergeant at Arms
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Are people blind, do they not see 500 people on mp at one time? Or half their friends list playing warband or Nw? I swear people don’t even play bannerlord who argue for it, I can’t get a siege and there’s barely enough for tdm Na
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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Have i ever called the warband system perfect? I never said the system was perfect but the issues you mention are easy to solve nonetheless so they are pretty irrelevant.

I played most of my time on NW, there is a massive difference between the two and you should feel embarrassed by still using this same argument. I didn't mind the class system in napoleonic wars because unlike bannerlord it fit the time period. You also seem to completely ignore the fact napoleonic wars had more unique classes like artillery, sappers, trumpets and it the latest update medics.

You're comparing oranges to apples.

You mention you only play with 2-3 builds but that's how you decide to play the game, giving people the choice on how they play the game is what made mount and blade multiplayer fun.

If you are playing with 2-3 builds what are you exactly complaining about in the end? You are losing nothing with having the warband customization back like you said. You said its not a difference so i don't see what you're arguing against?

You're nitpicking on issues on warband that are easy to solve by the devs, but decide to neglect the massive issues bannerlord has is that it?
most of the issue dont root in the class system per se
 

Younes123

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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most of the issue dont root in the class system per se
The whole idea of perks not costing money for example is. They are making it very hard to balance the classes by not introducing money for each perk.

The roles they want each class to fit, limits the amount of playstyles. For example i prefer to be light on foot and having low armor and having heavy weapons. But the class system hinders this for.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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The whole idea of perks not costing money for example is. They are making it very hard to balance the classes by not introducing money for each perk.

The roles they want each class to fit, limits the amount of playstyles. For example i prefer to be light on foot and having low armor and having heavy weapons. But the class system hinders this for.
isnt that shock inf?
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
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Except they're not light enough for me. They feel way too heavy with the armor
They are fast? At this points its just nit picketing. The shock inf just is useless because of archers, cav and every unit having 3-5 throwing weapons that can each oneshot you.
 

Younes123

Sergeant Knight at Arms
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They are fast? At this points its just nit picketing. The shock inf just is useless because of archers, cav and every unit having 3-5 throwing weapons that can each oneshot you.
No they're not, this is why the class system is limiting playstyles like i said. Also you said throwing weapons oneshotting you supposed to be a good thing?
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
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No they're not, this is why the class system is limiting playstyles like i said. Also you said throwing weapons oneshotting you supposed to be a good thing?
no because it prevents people from actually playing
 

NightC2win

Recruit
WBWF&SNWVC
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I think the biggest issue with MP decline is unstable and crashing servers. Lots of players who bought bannerlord had never played warband, so most wouldn't initially know the difference of having set classes or not. It's hard to blame certain aspects of the game for players not coming back if the servers don't work half the time.
Yeah I mean we really can't expect to have a solid player base if the game legit doesn't even work a lot of the time... there are all sorts of issues. It is to the point where you basically expect some kind of issue every day or two, like no one can log in, or the servers crash, or the servers lag like crazy, etc.

But also, some of the combat still needs to be fixed. And the class system is NOT good, some of the choices are straight up laughable and less customization is the wrong direction to go 90% of the time in gaming... I don't need a dumbed down system that's "easier to use" I would argue its not even easier to use, half the time i'm looking at my choices going uhh.. I really don't want this or that but i'm forced to have it or lose something else I want... plus you can't look through your class choices while your still spawned and preset it like you could in Warband.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
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Because alle the games are one sided.
Most scores are 0:6 which means that the team that won the first turn of a match also won the remaining turns.

The team that wins has more money than the losing team. That implies that snowballing is an issue here.
That can imply much more issues than just snowballing.

With 13 out 17 matches in a competitive tournament ending with the losing team not getting a single round, how does it not? Then in 2 more matches the losing team got 1 (one) round, only two matches could ever be considered close.

This is snowballing evidence staring right at people's faces, but some just close their eyes it seems.
Again,.it can mean a lot of things, not necessarily snowballing.
 

Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
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It just seems to me that there are bigger issues (like the crashing) that we could be talking about first.
This would be the case if there was one big team working on a single thing at a time, but TaleWorlds employees have said that the team is broken up into singleplayer and multiplayer sections, and that those sections are broken up into even smaller subsections to deal with different parts of the game (servers, combat, class balance, etc.). The team dealing with stability and crashes will work independently of any and all issues to do with this terrible class system.
 

Maroon

Grandmaster Knight
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That can imply much more issues than just snowballing.
To shamelessly quote myself:
If the better team wins the first round, the better team then gets to keep their gold for the next round, which means the better team has more respawns or can more consistently choose better classes, which means the worse team has an even smaller chance to win. That is the definition of snowballing, and the above graph proves that this happens.
Now, I don't think removing snowballing elements alone would be enough to prevent such results. As you said, there are plenty of other things wrong with the game that help cause such an extreme situation. But you cannot deny that these results are caused (among other things) by snowballing.
If a team can beat three other teams 6-0, and then lose the fourth match 0-6, either skill levels are extremely varied (which I highly doubt) or something is very wrong with the gamemode's design.
My comment above highlights a part of Skirmish's design that is, by definition, snowballing. I agree with you, Tork, that that's unlikely to be the only cause of these extreme tournament results, but the fact that snowballing exists doesn't need to be empirically proven when the gamemode's fundamental design showcases it.
 

๖Kern

Grandmaster Knight
WBNW
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To shamelessly quote myself:

If a team can beat three other teams 6-0, and then lose the fourth match 0-6, either skill levels are extremely varied (which I highly doubt) or something is very wrong with the gamemode's design.
My comment above highlights a part of Skirmish's design that is, by definition, snowballing. I agree with you, Tork, that that's unlikely to be the only cause of these extreme tournament results, but the fact that snowballing exists doesn't need to be empirically proven when the gamemode's fundamental design showcases it.
Snowballing in the form of additional lives is a huge issue, but the results do not prove much and you can not base snowballing on one-sided results in thw tournament unless you actually watched the matches.