RIP MP

Razzyrazz

Recruit
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Not a huge fan of Multi-player except for Captain mode. Captain mode is awesome. Good blend of fighting and commanding.
 

RCC_God

Sergeant at Arms
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Are people blind? Have they seen what the Na tourney looks like? No snowballing my ass
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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Probably should give a flat amount each round (300 and rework unit costs) or max the gold at 360. Or make heavy cav more expensive and finally fix them then the snowballing wouldnt be this strong. infantry always got the same amount of spawns, and half of the archers aswell.

There might be a skill gap between each of the teams aswell.
 

Asghoig

Recruit
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Except its not, been debunked keep trying tork, keep trying
I see a lot of back and forth between class system and the customization available in Warband. I have never played warband and am completely ignorant on that matter. Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "debunked"
 

Mabons

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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I see a lot of back and forth between class system and the customization available in Warband. I have never played warband and am completely ignorant on that matter. Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "debunked"
Copied from another post I made:

For quick reference this is what Taleworlds reasoning behind the class system is:
  • Prevent snowballing
  • Making picking equipment simpler. New players don't know what to pick and why, and spawning time is limited.
  • We wanted to see fully armored knights AND peasants on the same battlefield and they should NOT be equal in power.
  • And we want to see both of them available on round 1.
  • We want the knight to be able to picked by anyone, not by the already skilled player who killed everyone and now has enough money to buy the equipment.
  • Making troops distinctive enough with a glance you know all about what you are facing. Capabilities, gear, etc.
  • Giving each class a predetermined purpose. To enable players to work on building effective teams, adapting tactics depending on the situation.
  • To provide better visuals for the spectators or other players by having properly dressed soldiers. Knights looking like knights, Crossbowmen looking like crossbowmen etc.
  • To be able to use the same system for all game modes - Captain mode and Skirmish mode etc.

Here is the link which this is from. This is the massive discussion thread that was made by Callum to contain the many threads about it in the beta. You can read through it and see that people gave polite, constructive answers, from competitive, to casual, to even the forums own moderators. Here is the final reply we've had on the matter AFAIK.
 

Lagstro

Baron
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Tork actually made a good point. The current class system prevents hard snowballing.
Is this Tork's alternate account? :lol:

How does the current class system prevent snowballing? Please explain.

From my experience with the game, this is what happens: Team 1 wins the first round, consequently ending up with more gold to spend than their opponents the following round. This leads to Team 1 using that extra gold to either spawn in with more lives than Team 2, or spawn in multiple times with the highest tier units which Team 2 can't do. This leads to Team 2 now having to fight an uphill battle against higher quality troops and/or more re-spawns, and this is after they had already lost the first round, presumably because they were already the worse team to begin with.

At least in Warband you could build formidable units with the base 1K gold loadout. In Bannerlord you are sometimes forced to use trash tier units, which are close to being default equipment/0 gold loadout units from Warband, against fully armored opponents with armored horses and the best equipment. That situation is the equivalent to Warband's absolute worst case scenario caused by the snowball effect, which almost never happened within Warband's competitive format, yet it's something we see happen all the time in Bannerlord's skirmish mode because of the way the game is designed.

Warband's snowballing happened in a slow, progressive way, and its worst case scenarios were difficult to achieve and rarely happened.
Bannerlord's snowballing happens abruptly, and the equivalent to Warband's worst case match-ups happen frequently by design. (Mainly caused by TaleWorld's desire to see peasants and knights fighting on the same battlefield at the same time, even within their premier competitive mode.) The classes are literally made to be imbalanced, with the huge imbalance attempted to be remedied with how many times you can re-spawn as them. It's not a design decision I can personally get behind.
 

artiedee

Recruit
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Their reasoning is totally disconnected from how MP actually is played, you can spit anywhere and there will be a weapon of your choice laying around. All these classes are just a choice of armor/mobility everything else can be picked up. Captain and skirmish is different and they can retain the class system, but for duels you have these made up rules and class system is an obstacle right now, same for TDM.
 

RDP

Veteran
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Is this Tork's alternate account? :lol:

How does the current class system prevent snowballing? Please explain.

From my experience with the game, this is what happens: Team 1 wins the first round, consequently ending up with more gold to spend than their opponents the following round. This leads to Team 1 using that extra gold to either spawn in with more lives than Team 2, or spawn in multiple times with the highest tier units which Team 2 can't do. This leads to Team 2 now having to fight an uphill battle against higher quality troops and/or more re-spawns, and this is after they had already lost the first round, presumably because they were already the worse team to begin with.

At least in Warband you could build formidable units with the base 1K gold loadout. In Bannerlord you are sometimes forced to use trash tier units, which are close to being default equipment/0 gold loadout units from Warband, against fully armored opponents with armored horses and the best equipment. That situation is the equivalent to Warband's absolute worst case scenario caused by the snowball effect, which almost never happened within Warband's competitive format, yet it's something we see happen all the time in Bannerlord's skirmish mode because of the way the game is designed.

Warband's snowballing happened in a slow, progressive way, and its worst case scenarios were difficult to achieve and rarely happened.
Bannerlord's snowballing happens abruptly, and the equivalent to Warband's worst case match-ups happen frequently by design. (Mainly caused by TaleWorld's desire to see peasants and knights fighting on the same battlefield at the same time, even within their premier competitive mode.) The classes are literally made to be imbalanced, with the huge imbalance attempted to be remedied with how many times you can re-spawn as them. It's not a design decision I can personally get behind.
This. Tin cans rarely appeared and when they did they ended up being worse because they were so slow. The amount of hits the tin can could take is the same as 2nd tier inf in bannerlord anyway.
 

DainMorgot

Regular
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Copied from another post I made:
  • Prevent snowballing
    [*]Making picking equipment simpler. New players don't know what to pick and why, and spawning time is limited.
    [*]We wanted to see fully armored knights AND peasants on the same battlefield and they should NOT be equal in power.
    [*]And we want to see both of them available on round 1.
    [*]We want the knight to be able to picked by anyone, not by the already skilled player who killed everyone and now has enough money to buy the equipment.
    [*]Making troops distinctive enough with a glance you know all about what you are facing. Capabilities, gear, etc.
    [*]Giving each class a predetermined purpose. To enable players to work on building effective teams, adapting tactics depending on the situation.
    [*]To provide better visuals for the spectators or other players by having properly dressed soldiers. Knights looking like knights, Crossbowmen looking like crossbowmen etc.
    [*]To be able to use the same system for all game modes - Captain mode and Skirmish mode etc.
  • Prevent snowballing
This is actually worse than Warband's.

  • We wanted to see fully armored knights AND peasants on the same battlefield and they should NOT be equal in power.
Who the hell wants to play a peasant? lmao, nobody plays a medieval game to have some farmer power fantasy, everybody wants to be a knight or the powerful equivalent of other cultures. also, it's meme as hell that they want the game to not be a snowball YET they say NOT equal in power in a way that implies massive power difference

  • And we want to see both of them available on round 1.
Which leads to 0 progression, snowball and bad gameplay.

  • Making troops distinctive enough with a glance you know all about what you are facing. Capabilities, gear, etc.
Yes, because your playerbase is so dumb that they cant understand gear a mile away. We are dumb guys.

  • Giving each class a predetermined purpose. To enable players to work on building effective teams, adapting tactics depending on the situation.
Boring, does not work. There is no adaptation because YOU HAVE SAID YOURSELF THAT CLASSES HAVE PREDETERMINED PURPOSES

  • To provide better visuals for the spectators or other players by having properly dressed soldiers. Knights looking like knights, Crossbowmen looking like crossbowmen etc.
Boring, not sure who comes up with those stupid roleplaying-forcing aspects.

  • To be able to use the same system for all game modes - Captain mode and Skirmish mode etc.
Lazy and boring design.



This is taleworlds game design:

Players: Hey dude, I want a coke
TW: Have a pepsi, its better
Players: But I asked for a pepsi
TW: My god these ****ing people, how ungrateful they are.
 

Maximuuus

Regular
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There are 2 mains problems in MP :
- the boring class system because you can't create YOUR warrior...
- the slooooowww movements/reactions - everything looks based on luck rather than reflex... Can't remember how many times I parry but my character is so slow that I'm dead...
 

_Osiris_

Baron
WBNWWF&SVC
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*they wont change the class system they have said that since the alpha lol, no matter how much we argue and cry, just gotta wait for the modders to do their thing*
 

Ikea Knight

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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How does this prove snowballing?
Because alle the games are one sided.
Most scores are 0:6 which means that the team that won the first turn of a match also won the remaining turns.

The team that wins has more money than the losing team. That implies that snowballing is an issue here.
 

Rangah

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
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How does this prove snowballing?
With 13 out 17 matches in a competitive tournament ending with the losing team not getting a single round, how does it not? Then in 2 more matches the losing team got 1 (one) round, only two matches could ever be considered close.

This is snowballing evidence staring right at people's faces, but some just close their eyes it seems.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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With 13 out 17 matches in a competitive tournament ending with the losing team not getting a single round, how does it not? Then in 2 more matches the losing team got 1 (one) round, only two matches could ever be considered close.

This is snowballing evidence staring right at people's faces, but some just close their eyes it seems.
I would not necessarily just put it all on snowballing (heavy cav snowballs super hard though). The better player just wins the skirmish, you cant just luck out 1 round. Theres a huge skillgap in NA; well generally between teams. Furthermore, some factions are just straight out far better.

Dont think that skirmish needs progression, just balanced (the classes are far too unbalanced at the moment) different played classes. If they make a toggle to switch skins on and off it will be easier for spectators, while experienced players still can differentiate between different armors.

You forgot to add the weapon swap argument. For example, on the old system they cant balance archers around melee weapons, if infantry or cavalry gets an extra one for free.
 
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Alyss

Sergeant Knight at Arms
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For rN it has nothing to do with snowballing because most of the team didn’t even have to use 2 lives to secure the round. It was mostly the gap in skill.

But I agree that snowballing in Bannerlord is worse than warband. I mean you just need to understand that 2>1 to get it. In Bannerlord you can spawn twice as a tank if you won first round, in warband you would need to win 2 rounds with at least 6 kills to buy one top piece of armor. Give me one example of a match where you see someone in full armor and with a tanky horse.
 

Maroon

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&SNW
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I would not necessarily just put it all on snowballing (heavy cav snowballs super hard though). The better player just wins the skirmish, you cant just luck out 1 round.
If the better team wins the first round, the better team then gets to keep their gold for the next round, which means the better team has more respawns or can more consistently choose better classes, which means the worse team has an even smaller chance to win. That is the definition of snowballing, and the above graph proves that this happens.
Now, I don't think removing snowballing elements alone would be enough to prevent such results. As you said, there are plenty of other things wrong with the game that help cause such an extreme situation. But you cannot deny that these results are caused (among other things) by snowballing.
 

RCC_God

Sergeant at Arms
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Look just how many 6-0s there are tork, almost all the games are 6-0 or 6-1 that is insane! It never happened in warband it’s ludicrous
 

AxiosXiphos

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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2239 hours and not even 80/80 achievements and still bad in melee, thats an achievement. 60/80 now. congrats.

If you did not understand what is the meaning of the bolded line you quoted, then the problem is not english, believe me. see you on skirmish :*

edit: i'd tell you my profile but then i'd have to kill you.

final edit: class system is an excuse for bad players to find comfort in a system that removes player freedom because they got destroyed by naked 2 handers in warband. Those who defend the system are nothing more than bad players who wish ill upon those who are legitimately better players. snowballing is worse than warband's, its most evident if you actually play the game.
Yeah I don't care for achievements and many require you to play to very specific agendas / playstyles.... why would I bother? It's literally a meaningless goal with 'almost' no reward. If you are an achievement hunter then fair enough - that's your game to play but I have no care for them. I've played dozens of different game modes, mods, tournaments and clan events through my time. I find no issue in either system because I have no problems in either system - I just prefer the class system.

DainMorgot either reveal your own game profile or I will make no further attempts to engage with you. I have called you out and you are now floundering to avoid speaking about it - clearly your own game time is very very low. Nothing wrong with that but you need to stop trying to boast about it. You made a weird flex to try and prove your point and it has been thrown back in your face 10X over. If you want to talk about classes we can talk about classes like adults. You started this troll-war (for some reason) now I have ended it.

It doesn't matter if you have 2.2K hours Axios.

It just shows that even if people have absurd amount of hours in warband, they don't know what made the multiplayer great on so many levels.
I mean it sort of does though doesn't it? If i'm willing to commit that much time to the game, join events, clans, tournaments, download mods, make my own mods, mod other mods then it does indicate that I both love the game and know EXACTLY why it was so great on so many levels. And for me none of them were particularly improved (or made worse) by the warband customisation - it just added very little to the formula one way or the other.

For example did you know that the Warband "classes" were actually not balanced - they did not have the same stats. Nord Huscarls had more health and more power strike value then Veagir spearmen. Thereby a huscarl with a scimitar (elite or not - I liked them both) was flat out more effective then a Veagir Spearmen with the same loadout?

Or that in Napoleonic Wars the Scottish Captain had 500 Two handed skill? However all two handers in that game were classed as polearms so in theory he could never use it - just a braveheart reference I guess.

It's stuff like that which no one ever bothers to mention - the Warband system was really quite broken. Fun but broken.

This has always been my issue with this argument - I really don't care about the class selection either way. It really makes very little difference to the game. I played the heck out of NW and that basically only had 4 very similar classes.

If they said tomorrow they were either never ever going to consider bringing back the warband system OR that they were going to immediately bring it back then I would be pretty apathetic either way. What annoys me is that people seem to think it's the end of the world for some reason despite barely being on my radar. Playing warband I made 2-3 different builds for each faction and then always played them - with scaling plans in mind for gold; I might as well had been playing pre-made classes because it wouldn't make a difference.
 
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