Open petition to remove couchlance from the game completely

[Brandis.]

Couching should be kept in the game as a mechanic. It trades the freedom and reach of normal stabs for more "hard reads" and expands the toolkit of cav. M&B is already very minimalistic and taking away options doesn't sound like a great move.

That said, at the very least, there should be a cooldown after couching something. Right now you can often delete two enemies back-to-back and that feels very overtuned.

I'd also be okay with couches geting the "sweet spot" back, although widened and less harsh damage falloff. The first implementation felt quite artificial.

 

[Ser Jon]

What sort of solution is it to just remove without first adjusting? All it needs is a bit of tweaking. That said, the real issue is the horses and their movement. Good lord.

 

[TheBard]

What sort of solution is it to just remove without first adjusting? All it needs is a bit of tweaking. That said, the real issue is the horses and their movement. Good lord.

It has been nerfed, then cav mains cried about their instagib being gone, now it has reliable damage since 100+ damage is oneshot. Is that improvement? No.

With polarizing the debate by calling for straight removal the issue has at least been discussed. I can just hope that some dev has seen this and will find some conclusions on how to improve on this.

 

[jon01]

I think it should be properly nerfed and not removed. Even crushthrough isn't completely removed.

The way it worked in Warband was good, except I'd further decrease the angle at which the lance can be redirected, since you could move it quite far outward and fairly quickly if you drag the camera way off to the side (or even upward). The fact that cavalry could more easily be reared in Warband also made couched lances more effective against other cavalry, which is what I used it for mostly.

 

[Ser Jon]

It has been nerfed, then cav mains cried about their instagib being gone, now it has reliable damage since 100+ damage is oneshot. Is that improvement? No.

With polarizing the debate by calling for straight removal the issue has at least been discussed. I can just hope that some dev has seen this and will find some conclusions on how to improve on this.

Then it should be continued to be worked on, so that it pleases both sides. If cav mains want one shots all around, they are asking for way too much.

 

[Will Greaves]

Poll choices are wrong. I don't see a reason to completely remove lance couching, so I voted "No, I like to press X for instakill." However, I do not actually use couched lances. And I'm a lancer.

They just aren't worth using. I can't afford to sacrifice both range and control for a bit of extra damage which is usually redundant anyway. My thrust lance has more range, more accuracy, can be done at a much greater angle, and then usually one-shots anything anyway, as long as I'm riding toward the target and the latter is moving toward me.

So, I've gone a full 3000 game-days as a lancer without using a couched lance once, because I don't find couching lances to be as nearly effective as thrusting.

It baffles me that people are crying about it being OP, when I find it underpowered enough that I won't use it. But then, I'm a single-player guy in Bannerlord (until private custom servers), so maybe things are different in MP. But even if that's so, then we should be talking about removing couched lances from multiplayer, not from singleplayer. The latter is just dog-in-the-manager behavior. While their removal wouldn't affect me personally, there are players who enjoy using couched lances in singleplayer, and there's no reason to deny them that, for no benefit to those who enjoy multiplayer.

 

[Forsee]

Get off your high horse, OGL is completely correct. True, most archers don’t get couched by cav coming frontally at them while there’s nothing else going on in the round, because the archer would have to be incapable of using their mouse to miss a shot on a cav coming at them in a straight line with nothing else taking their attention. You are purposefully misinterpreting OGL’s point, that archers do get couched by cav but it is often when they are distracted shooting into a fight, shooting at another cav, by both cav going for one archer at the same time, while the archer is getting pushed by inf etc.

There are many situations where archers cannot respond properly to an incoming couch, both when they are aware of it and when they are not. Couches in Bannerlord are extremely poorly balanced and the devs should load up Warband and take notes for how to balance them.

Archers are ALWAYS paying attention to both enemy cavs. It's their biggest fear and main target, you couldn't come unexpectedly to the archer from behind and couch him, catching him on being busy of something else, that's not how it ever works. Most of the time archers die to cav is when they are 1v2, no matter against cav+inf or 2 cavs. Couch is not really doing much in these situations cause 1v2 against cav you will die quickly no matter what. Archers dying 1v1 against cav sometimes but it is always their mistake. Pressing x to kill shooting archer in open field is a kind of suicide usually and even if it goes with 30-40% against a guy who's often missing, it is still great for an archer to take this risk and awful for cav to stake his broken 200g monster class spawn

 

[Terco_Viejo]

[...] The fact that cavalry could more easily be reared in Warband also made couched lances more effective against other cavalry, which is what I used it for mostly.

That's the problem, misuse and because of that misuse bad experience. Imo the couched lance is an action primarily against cavalry; usage makes the rule. I may sound like a pain in the ass with my crappy tests , here's another one that complements what I said here.




The couch action against cavalry would be within a range of success by default. However, to carry out the couch action against a foot troop, although effective, the hit window would be much smaller by restricting the angles of manoeuvrability and spear aiming when X. In short, an action mainly against cavalry rather than infantry that would be nerfed, not removed, making the best strategy against infantry to use normal spear attacks as the most effective option.

 

[ShakenSpeare]

The fact that cavalry could more easily be reared in Warband also made couched lances more effective against other cavalry, which is what I used it for mostly.

You mean in the context of couching them at their flank and/or when their horses are reared, I assume? It's hard on the memory, but I remember with cav on cav fights, that stabbing gave you far more range, meaning that any fool attempting to joust you head on with couching would get beaten to the punch with your thrust. To me, it made more sense to use couch on unaware enemies on foot/enemies without spears or throwing weapons. They can't block it, they can only jump out of the way or get their shield smashed, if they even have one.

 

[jon01]

Yeah, couching them from the side (almost like cutting them off), and also from behind if they've been reared. I don't normally see two cavalries couching at one another from a distance like in a joust, but I'm pretty sure a couched lance would always win in a head-to-head situation like that, since you can't reach the lance beyond your horse to the enemy rider. In other situations, when a cavalry is coming in from the side, you can counter with a well-timed lance thrust, which I think is important to be able to do. In Bannerlord, it looks like the overhead thrust ought to outrange the couched lance, although I've seen at least one clip where it completely failed (and the streamer was furious). It might've been the really high speed of the horse that threw him off - a bit like how a Courser can be in Warband.

 

[ChristopherR]

Learn to dodge or try bringing a shield instead of raging about it.

 

[Nopanda]

its literally not even op, if you cant dodge it then youre literally bad

 

[ShakenSpeare]

I'm pretty sure a couched lance would always win in a head-to-head situation like that, since you can't reach the lance beyond your horse to the enemy rider.

Maybe my memory is off but in Warband I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case, if you timed the thrust well you had more range, and it was much more dynamic and thus much more suited for cav on cav fights. Jousts or otherwise. You're fully extending your arm when you thrust, with the couch you're just holding it in place.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Archers are ALWAYS paying attention to both enemy cavs. It's their biggest fear and main target, you couldn't come unexpectedly to the archer from behind and couch him, catching him on being busy of something else, that's not how it ever works. Most of the time archers die to cav is when they are 1v2, no matter against cav+inf or 2 cavs. Couch is not really doing much in these situations cause 1v2 against cav you will die quickly no matter what. Archers dying 1v1 against cav sometimes but it is always their mistake.

Couches kill a pressured archer faster than stabs (which can be blocked, further prolonging the fight) or bump stabs. In surprise attacks, in 2v1s, in moments where the archer is caught switching or reloading etc, all have utility. Again, it's utter nonsense to pretend couches have no utility. Bizarre theorycrafting when experience shows it happens countless times.

it is still great for an archer to take this risk and awful for cav to stake his broken 200g monster class spawn

This is correct, which is why I said respawns are a bad mechanic.

 

[Greedalicious]

People want it removed because theres no trust in TW to balance it properly. I'll keep the faith abit longer, and say theres way more important mechanics to look into.

 

[jon01]

Maybe my memory is off but in Warband I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case, if you timed the thrust well you had more range, and it was much more dynamic and thus much more suited for cav on cav fights. Jousts or otherwise. You're fully extending your arm when you thrust, with the couch you're just holding it in place.

Maybe it can happen in a straight-on joust, I'm not completely sure, but the problem is that a couched lance only needs to hit your horse's head to dismount you, whereas a normal lance thrust needs to hit the rider further away, since a normal thrust to the enemy horse's head won't necessarily kill it.

It makes sense to swivel your horse around in any case (if you're not caught by surprise and have time to react), in order to protect your horse's head and increase your range of attack.

 

[Sikkimoto]

Speaking of more important things:

- proper duel server
- battle mode
- coop campaign (yes i am a dreamer)
- heavy inf buff

 

[Einarcf]

Custom servers you mean?

 

[JakobvanBicke]

Speaking of more important things:

- proper duel server
- battle mode
- coop campaign (yes i am a dreamer)
- heavy inf buff

I call you a dreamer for thinking they'll ever get Inf to a state where it's actually useful
Modders are already working on the coop thing, and seeing BO works, coop shouldn't be an issue either.

 

[Nopanda]

Couching is not even a issue in this game,dont remove it, its legit unpowered.