Discussion about cavalry balance and knock downs

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NIN3 said:
I didn't want to say we are not touching it. We are thinking about making inf and cav spears different, I just dont think it's effective by itself, since you can always share equipment in your team. It will help casual play of course though and there is always a downside when switching equipment.
Btw just so it doesn't come across wrong, I am a big fan of equipment sharing (as long as its not over done). It's a great way for teams to widen up their strategies and makes people think differently about some perks!

Doing animation changes is a bit out of scope right now. We are gonna ask for some new animations from the Animation team soon, but we will need to find other ways to balance for the short term.
Click to expand...
Glad you like swapping, I think it's a nice, player developed system.

Any sneak peek at the animation changes going to be proposed? :iamamoron:
 
NIN3 said:
I didn't want to say we are not touching it. We are thinking about making inf and cav spears different, I just dont think it's effective by itself, since you can always share equipment in your team. It will help casual play of course though and there is always a downside when switching equipment.
Btw just so it doesn't come across wrong, I am a big fan of equipment sharing (as long as its not over done). It's a great way for teams to widen up their strategies and makes people think differently about some perks!

Doing animation changes is a bit out of scope right now. We are gonna ask for some new animations from the Animation team soon, but we will need to find other ways to balance for the short term.

Sure cav benefits greatly from speed bonus. But as i said, changing it (no matter how we increase inf spear damages) is gonna make rearing horses harder. Now its hard to weight less cav damage vs harder horse rears. But I don't think we need trade offs to balance cav right now, but clear nerfs.
Also this mechanic as it is implemented literally affects everything. We would need to rebalance all weapons in the game since the dps in inf vs inf fights would also be reduced, bringing back a lot of bouncing and so on.

We will have a talk on monday about more concrete measures. But since its not decided I can't give you a clear rundown of the next balance changes. But your suggestions overall go into a similar direction as our thoughts.
Click to expand...
Can you take the following into consideration when you do the meeting with your colleagues?
-> Horse health (especially of armoured horses) is ridiculously high. Suggestion is to reduce horse health and/or potentially change how blunt and cut damage deal to the horses.
-> Friendly fire on horses must be enabled. Friendly fire is a serious thing to take into consideration and letting horses be free from all this definitely gives them a massive advantage. This is like saying Xbow classes cannot friendly fire but all others can. (talking about 1h hits from the ground etc. that always deal 1 or 2 damage)
-> Strongest bump down time on the ground for player should be reduced significantly
-> Cooldown of WW for cavalry for a few seconds after being reared? Or, increase time of the rear alltogether. Two options..
-> Glancing blows on horses seem to occur A LOT. Many people complain about this. Something needs to be done about this.
-> Sound cues for horses. A lot of people complain about not being able to hear cav coming properly. This is a delicate subject but I am sure there are plenty of options to improve this.
-> Cavalry shouldnt be able to block attacks while falling off the horse.. Furthermore, sometimes when they are dismounted they end up in weird places like inside the wall etc.
-> Potentially decrease weapon damage and weapon speed on horseback?
 
Loyal2Odin said:
Can you take the following into consideration when you do the meeting with your colleagues?
-> Horse health (especially of armoured horses) is ridiculously high. Suggestion is to reduce horse health and/or potentially change how blunt and cut damage deal to the horses.
-> Friendly fire on horses must be enabled. Friendly fire is a serious thing to take into consideration and letting horses be free from all this definitely gives them a massive advantage. This is like saying Xbow classes cannot friendly fire but all others can. (talking about 1h hits from the ground etc. that always deal 1 or 2 damage)
-> Strongest bump down time on the ground for player should be reduced significantly
-> Cooldown of WW for cavalry for a few seconds after being reared? Or, increase time of the rear alltogether. Two options..
-> Glancing blows on horses seem to occur A LOT. Many people complain about this. Something needs to be done about this.
-> Sound cues for horses. A lot of people complain about not being able to hear cav coming properly. This is a delicate subject but I am sure there are plenty of options to improve this.
-> Cavalry shouldnt be able to block attacks while falling off the horse.. Furthermore, sometimes when they are dismounted they end up in weird places like inside the wall etc.
-> Potentially decrease weapon damage and weapon speed on horseback?
Click to expand...
Amazing suggestions if all this is implemented we can have balanced and fun fights in the future.
 
Loyal2Odin said:
Can you take the following into consideration when you do the meeting with your colleagues?
-> Horse health (especially of armoured horses) is ridiculously high. Suggestion is to reduce horse health and/or potentially change how blunt and cut damage deal to the horses.
-> Friendly fire on horses must be enabled. Friendly fire is a serious thing to take into consideration and letting horses be free from all this definitely gives them a massive advantage. This is like saying Xbow classes cannot friendly fire but all others can. (talking about 1h hits from the ground etc. that always deal 1 or 2 damage)
-> Strongest bump down time on the ground for player should be reduced significantly
-> Cooldown of WW for cavalry for a few seconds after being reared? Or, increase time of the rear alltogether. Two options..
-> Glancing blows on horses seem to occur A LOT. Many people complain about this. Something needs to be done about this.
-> Sound cues for horses. A lot of people complain about not being able to hear cav coming properly. This is a delicate subject but I am sure there are plenty of options to improve this.
-> Cavalry shouldnt be able to block attacks while falling off the horse.. Furthermore, sometimes when they are dismounted they end up in weird places like inside the wall etc.
-> Potentially decrease weapon damage and weapon speed on horseback?
Click to expand...

Pretty much everything is right there.
 
Loyal2Odin said:
-> Sound cues for horses. A lot of people complain about not being able to hear cav coming properly. This is a delicate subject but I am sure there are plenty of options to improve this.
Click to expand...
Honestly I don't see how this is a problem for people. I've never had a problem hearing cav approaching, and even their direction of approach is usually very easy to make out when wearing headphones. The only place where cavalry sounds are a bit confusing is the desert map since it has 2 floors, but even then you can make out where the cab is by the echo effect.
 
Loyal2Odin said:
Can you take the following into consideration when you do the meeting with your colleagues?
-> Horse health (especially of armoured horses) is ridiculously high. Suggestion is to reduce horse health and/or potentially change how blunt and cut damage deal to the horses.
-> Friendly fire on horses must be enabled. Friendly fire is a serious thing to take into consideration and letting horses be free from all this definitely gives them a massive advantage. This is like saying Xbow classes cannot friendly fire but all others can. (talking about 1h hits from the ground etc. that always deal 1 or 2 damage)
-> Strongest bump down time on the ground for player should be reduced significantly
-> Cooldown of WW for cavalry for a few seconds after being reared? Or, increase time of the rear alltogether. Two options..
-> Glancing blows on horses seem to occur A LOT. Many people complain about this. Something needs to be done about this.
-> Sound cues for horses. A lot of people complain about not being able to hear cav coming properly. This is a delicate subject but I am sure there are plenty of options to improve this.
-> Cavalry shouldnt be able to block attacks while falling off the horse.. Furthermore, sometimes when they are dismounted they end up in weird places like inside the wall etc.
-> Potentially decrease weapon damage and weapon speed on horseback?
Click to expand...
Totally agree with these points! There are not many servers online in multiplayer so a lot of us are forced to play team death-match - pleaaaase look at how cav make these games almost unplayable for any other class. Anything you do (other than playing cav) will result in you being lanced in seconds, either on spawn or whilst trying to use ranged weapons or duel people. If you are lucky enough to land a spear/pike hit on cav (which, for some reason, feels much more difficult than in Warband) they cav will rear for about half a second, laugh/shrug off your punty attempts to injure them and engage their lightspeed jump to disappear and start lancing the rest of your team again. The balance was great in Warband and I think Loyal2Odin is right - the HP is main culprit - there's been a massive bump since Warband - but also the amount of time horses rear after getting stopped and the speed and which they can escape could be nerfed also giving inf a chance to fight back.
 
There are said things like bigger cd od double w on cav, but imo they should remove this mechanic, bcs it would nerf cav alot. Now is like going in full speed on spear, click double s, spear miss, double w and hes back in fight with good speed and no danger at all. Without this mechanic, cav would play more safely. It would be harder for them in all way and they will start think, what should they do to get in fight, but dont get stop by spearman. Now its only about run into tf, then u see spearman aming on you, so double s will save him in that situation, then double w and cav keep going.

For me its like cavs are like neanderthals using only one thing to avoid every possible danger. Without that infs can better deff themself and the fights would be more interesting and i hope more enjoyable, bcs spearman would be actual thing in fight, not only dumb peasant without any chance to stop cav
 
**Further further comment - playing more today - I've noted a few times trying to use a spear to stop cav - they are now so fast that you have so little time to even 'realse' the stab that they can easily bump you and cancel to attack before you can time anything
 
May I present unto thee, 5 easy steps to balance cavalry:

1. Make cavalry dismount to capture flags
2. Reduce heavy horse armor by ~50%, slightly reduce their HP
3. Add a 30 second cooldown between couches
4. Disable cavalry being able to block while getting up from being dismounted
5. Heavily reduce the longest knockdown lengths

voila
 
Rangah said:
May I present unto thee, 5 easy steps to balance cavalry:

1. Make cavalry dismount to capture flags
2. Reduce heavy horse armor by ~50%, slightly reduce their HP
3. Add a 30 second cooldown between couches
4. Disable cavalry being able to block while getting up from being dismounted
5. Heavily reduce the longest knockdown lengths

voila
Click to expand...
+1
 
Rangah said:
May I present unto thee, 5 easy steps to balance cavalry:

1. Make cavalry dismount to capture flags
2. Reduce heavy horse armor by ~50%, slightly reduce their HP
3. Add a 30 second cooldown between couches
4. Disable cavalry being able to block while getting up from being dismounted
5. Heavily reduce the longest knockdown lengths

voila
Click to expand...
1-yes
2-imo %50 is too much, around %30-35 should be enough
3-YES!
4-maybe
5-YESS
 
Rangah said:
May I present unto thee, 5 easy steps to balance cavalry:

1. Make cavalry dismount to capture flags
2. Reduce heavy horse armor by ~50%, slightly reduce their HP
3. Add a 30 second cooldown between couches
4. Disable cavalry being able to block while getting up from being dismounted
5. Heavily reduce the longest knockdown lengths

voila
Click to expand...

Great ideas!
 
Rangah said:
May I present unto thee, 5 easy steps to balance cavalry:

1. Make cavalry dismount to capture flags
2. Reduce heavy horse armor by ~50%, slightly reduce their HP
3. Add a 30 second cooldown between couches
4. Disable cavalry being able to block while getting up from being dismounted
5. Heavily reduce the longest knockdown lengths

voila
Click to expand...
  1. Might be a bit tricky
  2. Already done, not that harsh but coming next patch
  3. Up for discussion
  4. We are looking into getting up animations and when the player can block to make adjustments as required.
  5. We want the knockdown animation durations to be uniform, one of them is exceptionally long right now. The issue is that we can speed them up only so much, they start looking bad when it is too fast. We will record new animations if required but it might take some time.
 
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