Discussion about cavalry balance and knock downs

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Ikea Knight

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I am sorry, i have to disagree. The Kontos is amazing to kill of enemy Cav and Inf. That Dmg, Speed and Range makes it very strong, very good to handle if you are seasoned enough to auto think about range etc and makes it very powerfull. But the big downside why nobody uses it besides public games is: Archers. On Sturgia, they will just one shot you and the cataphract is to strong to give him up like that to Archer-Fire. Besides that Kontos is a great weapon to handle if you know how.

Yeah that's why I say add a shield.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
The benefit comes from the 2h nature, it makes the thrust faster and it seems to do more reliable damage. Honestly it's a bit broken but archers keep it in check.
 

Ikea Knight

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
The benefit comes from the 2h nature, it makes the thrust faster and it seems to do more reliable damage. Honestly it's a bit broken but archers keep it in check.

Yeah of cours the Kontos should remain two handed.
But a shield would help in some situations where the cav just has to get out of the fight.
Also the damage reduction in the back helps.

I shock infantry is still shock infantry and uses two handers eben with the shield they got.
 

NIN3

Developer
NW
There will be some changes to the Kontos, since its actually not that good right now. Check the Long Spear in "two handed" mode vs the Kontos. With the long spear you get a shield and the option to use it like a Kontos that is basically as good as the main one.

Anyway. I am reading everything in here. Sorry for not updating you that much, but I am waiting for the patch to drop, to showcase to you the first wave of changes that are coming with it (as mentioned before to charge damage and overall cavalry perks + balance).

Ill work on the getting up animations and the fine bump/charge balancing later on.
Also as announced we will work on spears, to make them more effective against cav, but that kinda off topic.
 

pfinnn

Recruit
How to nerf cav:
+ Lower horse speed
+ Lower horse acceleration
+ Lower maneuverability
+ Remove couching OR only start couching at max speed
 

NIN3

Developer
NW
Hey everyone!

First of all thank you for contributing here. It really helped greatly and will hopefully show even more in the future.

So with this patch the first set of changes are included, in accordance to what we want to change with the cavalry classes. The two goals of this set of changes was to make charge damage more consistent across the cavalry classes and replace useless/unused perks for them, with something better.

Changing of charge damage
Basically what I did was to lift the charge damage of light cavalry classes from an average of around ~3 to around ~5. This might seem puny in regards to heavy cav, but let's not forget that these classes usually have siginficiallty more horse speed, which also affects bump and knockdowns greatly. Also they are a lot cheaper.
The charge damages of heavy cav were mostly reduced to around ~11. You can see it as a nerf to heavy cav, except for the Vlandian Brawler.

This change is only the first step to making bumps/knockdowns better. Right now we are refactoring that calculation entirely and moving it to c# also, so it will be easier to mod. This goes along with other calculations that are being reworked, like knockback, but let's look at that at another opportunity.

Perk reworks
Certainly the work on perks is not over with this, especially for other classes, but I think these changes are a great step to enable cavalry to make more interesting decisions about their perks and not having to many instant picks, or at least some more utility ones. We basically removed all one handed weapon perks for cav (we kept 2 bastard axes as perks for the Knight and Cataphract) and most of the bow+arrow perks (except for khuzait and aserai). These perks were nearly never picked, in any of the game modes.

Instead we replaced them with much cooler ones, like new horses, or different choices for the lance/spear. A cool example for this is the Druzhinnik. The first perk option now basically between 3 horses, a good agile horse, a good tough horse, or the default horse but you get better armor. The 2nd perk is between a heavy lance (deals more damage but is slower), long lance (longer, but less damage) or a larger shield that comes with the long spear. That larger shield + long spear combo is something you’ll see more classes have now. Those 2 perks were kind of under picked although I guess we see with the Vanguard how important bigger shields can be for cav. So bundling it with the longspear (by making the spear default but giving 2 other lance options) might make it viable. Lets see.

Looted Horse perk for the Raider

  • Replaced heavy axe perk with looted horse perk (grants a random horse on spawn)

This perk really falls out of line with the usual perks we give. It grants a random horse, so has some “rng” to it (which I'll get to further below) and can even lead to a straight debuff. Purposely this perk is kind of the weaker side (although that's hard to tell), to not suddenly create a weird meta where people hope to get a good “rng” and roll over everyone. Rather that this perk kind of fits the flavour of a “Raider” class and also gives a sneak peak to our new skill perk system. (Yes skill perks are still coming, some time).

This perk is an alternative to tougher horse perk. So if you want to go for a save upgrade you still can.

Which horses can it give?
It can basically give any non sturgia horse. It wont give you camels or upgraded Warhorses (tier 4).

These are the chances to get a horse of a certain Tier:

Tier 0 - 6% (Horse Archer horse)

Tier 1 - 35% (Light Cav horses)

Tier 2 - 18% (Upgraded Light Cav Horses)

Tier 3 - 41% (Warhorses)

By the way, right now in the UI it will seem like you can manipulate the perk, by selecting it again and again, since it shows one of the applicable horses of that perk. Its not showing the one you spawn with though, so have fun trying to cheat the perk, but you'll be disappointed!

The camel nerf
That nerf was called for. It elevated the Beduin to one of the best light cavs in the game and sometimes even a better choice than the Mamluke. I am sorry to end Humphreys run, enough poor infantry was ran over by his mighty hooves. Still, I hope the camel stays a viable option for the Beduin

  • Decreased the charge damage of the Camel from 13 to 7
  • Decreased the speed of the Camel from 45 to 43
  • Increased the maneuver of the Camel from 70 to 74

So we reduced the charge damage by quite a lot, and the speed but not as harshly. This is to make them less of a charging machine. On the other hand we actually increased the maneuver of it to emphasize the intended role of it. A tanky, highly maneuverable mount, that because of its height and sitting position has certain advantages in close melee encounters or cav duels. It now stands against another agile horse variant. This is not an oversight. Rather that choice is more leaning on the Desert horse. So the alternative to the camel is a kind of manuevable horse that is really fast but not even near as tanky.

Looking forward to your feedback, as I mentioned, this is not the end of the cav rework and this thread. Go choose your perks wisely and see you on the battlefield!
 

hoonii

Sergeant
Hey everyone!

First of all thank you for contributing here. It really helped greatly and will hopefully show even more in the future.

So with this patch the first set of changes are included, in accordance to what we want to change with the cavalry classes. The two goals of this set of changes was to make charge damage more consistent across the cavalry classes and replace useless/unused perks for them, with something better.

Changing of charge damage
Basically what I did was to lift the charge damage of light cavalry classes from an average of around ~3 to around ~5. This might seem puny in regards to heavy cav, but let's not forget that these classes usually have siginficiallty more horse speed, which also affects bump and knockdowns greatly. Also they are a lot cheaper.
The charge damages of heavy cav were mostly reduced to around ~11. You can see it as a nerf to heavy cav, except for the Vlandian Brawler.

This change is only the first step to making bumps/knockdowns better. Right now we are refactoring that calculation entirely and moving it to c# also, so it will be easier to mod. This goes along with other calculations that are being reworked, like knockback, but let's look at that at another opportunity.

Perk reworks
Certainly the work on perks is not over with this, especially for other classes, but I think these changes are a great step to enable cavalry to make more interesting decisions about their perks and not having to many instant picks, or at least some more utility ones. We basically removed all one handed weapon perks for cav (we kept 2 bastard axes as perks for the Knight and Cataphract) and most of the bow+arrow perks (except for khuzait and aserai). These perks were nearly never picked, in any of the game modes.

Instead we replaced them with much cooler ones, like new horses, or different choices for the lance/spear. A cool example for this is the Druzhinnik. The first perk option now basically between 3 horses, a good agile horse, a good tough horse, or the default horse but you get better armor. The 2nd perk is between a heavy lance (deals more damage but is slower), long lance (longer, but less damage) or a larger shield that comes with the long spear. That larger shield + long spear combo is something you’ll see more classes have now. Those 2 perks were kind of under picked although I guess we see with the Vanguard how important bigger shields can be for cav. So bundling it with the longspear (by making the spear default but giving 2 other lance options) might make it viable. Lets see.

Looted Horse perk for the Raider



This perk really falls out of line with the usual perks we give. It grants a random horse, so has some “rng” to it (which I'll get to further below) and can even lead to a straight debuff. Purposely this perk is kind of the weaker side (although that's hard to tell), to not suddenly create a weird meta where people hope to get a good “rng” and roll over everyone. Rather that this perk kind of fits the flavour of a “Raider” class and also gives a sneak peak to our new skill perk system. (Yes skill perks are still coming, some time).

This perk is an alternative to tougher horse perk. So if you want to go for a save upgrade you still can.

Which horses can it give?
It can basically give any non sturgia horse. It wont give you camels or upgraded Warhorses (tier 4).

These are the chances to get a horse of a certain Tier:

Tier 0 - 6% (Horse Archer horse)

Tier 1 - 35% (Light Cav horses)

Tier 2 - 18% (Upgraded Light Cav Horses)

Tier 3 - 41% (Warhorses)

By the way, right now in the UI it will seem like you can manipulate the perk, by selecting it again and again, since it shows one of the applicable horses of that perk. Its not showing the one you spawn with though, so have fun trying to cheat the perk, but you'll be disappointed!

The camel nerf
That nerf was called for. It elevated the Beduin to one of the best light cavs in the game and sometimes even a better choice than the Mamluke. I am sorry to end Humphreys run, enough poor infantry was ran over by his mighty hooves. Still, I hope the camel stays a viable option for the Beduin



So we reduced the charge damage by quite a lot, and the speed but not as harshly. This is to make them less of a charging machine. On the other hand we actually increased the maneuver of it to emphasize the intended role of it. A tanky, highly maneuverable mount, that because of its height and sitting position has certain advantages in close melee encounters or cav duels. It now stands against another agile horse variant. This is not an oversight. Rather that choice is more leaning on the Desert horse. So the alternative to the camel is a kind of manuevable horse that is really fast but not even near as tanky.

Looking forward to your feedback, as I mentioned, this is not the end of the cav rework and this thread. Go choose your perks wisely and see you on the battlefield!
Very very interesting changes, sure wasn't expecting such changes in this short amount of time lol.
Looking forward to trying these out, especially the new horses and lances, keep up the good work!
 

Einarcf

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Nobody took bow and arrows on heavy cav because horse archery was nerfed so hard with the fixing of the mounted accuracy bug fix.

Also, it is hard to argue to take a horse archer with BEAST limits with your team leader, since it takes a valuable spot from the lancers, since lances and spears are so good. (But that is besides the main point).
 

Jufasto

Sergeant
WBWF&SNW
Thanks for the hardwork and trying to balance this game more and more but please don't bring these kind of game changing patches 4-5 days before the Beast 3 Final, atleast you can wait a little bit do it after the tournament ends.
 

Surreal120

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Thanks for the hardwork and trying to balance this game more and more but please don't bring these kind of game changing patches 4-5 days before the Beast 3 Final, atleast you can wait a little bit do it after the tournament ends.
The developers don't have to schedule anything around player events. Some of us want to test the changes as soon as possible.
 
This change is only the first step to making bumps/knockdowns better. Right now we are refactoring that calculation entirely and moving it to c# also, so it will be easier to mod. This goes along with other calculations that are being reworked, like knockback, but let's look at that at another opportunity.
Does the scripting engine use .Net framework, .NET Core, NET, or Mono? Given that the game is Windows only at the moment, I assume it is the .Net framework that it uses?
 

Zoonanay

Knight
The developers don't have to schedule anything around player events. Some of us want to test the changes as soon as possible.

The beta clients purpose is to test new changes as soon as possible.

If TW wants a "competitive" game they need to consider international tournaments not only in design but in development. Games like DOTA or Valorant have made the same mistakes, but they now actively avoiding making them again.

And let's be honest, it's not like there's that many tournaments to avoid anyhow.
 

Surreal120

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
The beta clients purpose is to test new changes as soon as possible.
For sure, but if TW is going to implement the changes regardless (which they seem to do even when the changes are questionable.) I'd rather play a "better" version of the game sooner. The game is also in Early Access, the whole point is that changes are being made constantly. You're in a tournament in an Early Access title, some volatility is expected.
 

.Brandis

Subforum Moderator
For sure, but if TW is going to implement the changes regardless (which they seem to do even when the changes are questionable.) I'd rather play a "better" version of the game sooner. The game is also in Early Access, the whole point is that changes are being made constantly. You're in a tournament in an Early Access title, some volatility is expected.

For major tournament finals, I'd rather not have a patch that changes up the game, but considering this is EA, patches at any other stage of the tournament would be expected.
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
For sure, but if TW is going to implement the changes regardless (which they seem to do even when the changes are questionable.) I'd rather play a "better" version of the game sooner. The game is also in Early Access, the whole point is that changes are being made constantly. You're in a tournament in an Early Access title, some volatility is expected.
Yes indeed, some volatility is expected. But this isn't "some" volatility..
 

Mushbeast

Squire
I'd rather they released the updates as soon as possible rather than waiting for tournaments to finish up.

The changes seem interesting though certainly not the issues most people have with cav at the moment, though you did say you aren't finished yet so can't wait to see what else you're planning!

Great to see the balancing changes really starting to fire up now.
 

Firunien

Grandmaster Knight
After playing skirmish for a while as cav, i have some thoughts about how the balance cav while keep it fun to play, maybe u will find some about it usefull. The current changes for infantry(taking their broken throwings) just shows how insanly broken cav is. Its often time to easy to get away with mistakes and miscalculations. Not by numbers in their equipment only but in general its gameplay needs improvement to make it more diverse and fun for everybody, the proposals are generally not taking into account any influence on singleplayer or captains mode :



General Mechanics :

Maneuverability decrease steeper

a little bit more while riding slow, and a bigger penalty at riding high speed. Titlting fight to lower speeds for


Rear on Impact

Lower speed threshold considerably, because you are a bit more maneuverable at low speeds its down to your riding skill which is fair.
Possibly enable this feature for collision between horses !


Reduce pushing of units

At the moment it often causes frustration of your teammate infantry because you push them around like chesspieces, for general cav gameplay it makes it hard to hit bumpslashes* properly(for non sweaters almost impossible) which should be a feature beeing used more frequently.

*To clarify, this is only for slashing weapons opposed to bumpstab by thrust.


Knockdowns

now to long and frequent, i know you are working at that currently @NIN3 so i will wait and see what you got :grin:


Couch lances

The inaccuracy, the lets call it wobbling, takes generally and even unrealisticly too long to occure and is way to small in final amlplitude , it should start very fast and make your lance really uncontrollable.
Animation to reset a couchlance is too slow, its takes a good amount of musclework to pull something up that big and heavy from this position, looks a bit too easy and fast.
Dont interrupt couch lances by jumping, some shower thought.




Balancing

Team damage on your horse

Its broken or a weird setting, it should be at least the same as for team humans.


Lances to Spear Relationship

Lances shouldnt be good at stabbing like spears, at the moment the lances are fast, long and high damage. It should be that lances are considerably slower and the stab damage should be even or lower then Spears. Their advantage is reach and couchability !


Time to kill for Horses


Is simply way to long especially against heavy cav, needing like 15 hits by infantry slashes is too much. A horsearmour wiht 40 compared to a infantry with the around the same amount is weird, the human wears different layers of armour, the horse a chainmail carpet. Should be decreased by at least a third across the board.

HP should also be cut, a bigbrain move would be 200hp for a horse. That is along your line of 100 for a human.
Cavalrys life in a teamfight is too riskfree atm, as we wont return to whale hunting devices en masse.
You shouldnt balance horses not by the chance of knockdowns too hard but the risk you take by engaging enemy infantry.







Anybody got some input for how to make cavalry more fun for everybody is welcome, maybe @Njördson @WakaWaka have some something to add/criticise since they tend to kill hundreds of people a day as cav :grin:.
Also @AVRC, @NIN3 maybe some form of combat test group for cavalry gameplay instead of experimenting on live servers ?
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
For the sake of putting opinions from a dirty cav main out there, I'll just dissect your post

General Mechanics :

Maneuverability decrease steeper

a little bit more while riding slow, and a bigger penalty at riding high speed. Titlting fight to lower speeds for

Can be done, but not super necessary imo

Rear on Impact

Lower speed threshold considerably, because you are a bit more maneuverable at low speeds its down to your riding skill which is fair.
Possibly enable this feature for collision between horses !

Agreed, emphasis on making friendly horses rear you

Reduce pushing of units

At the moment it often causes frustration of your teammate infantry because you push them around like chesspieces, for general cav gameplay it makes it hard to hit bumpslashes* properly(for non sweaters almost impossible) which should be a feature beeing used more frequently.

*To clarify, this is only for slashing weapons opposed to bumpstab by thrust.

Agreed, the pushing should be either very minimal or you should stop like in Warband

Knockdowns

now to long and frequent, i know you are working at that currently @NIN3 so i will wait and see what you got :grin:

Agreed

Couch lances

The inaccuracy, the lets call it wobbling, takes generally and even unrealisticly too long to occure and is way to small in final amlplitude , it should start very fast and make your lance really uncontrollable.
Animation to reset a couchlance is too slow, its takes a good amount of musclework to pull something up that big and heavy from this position, looks a bit too easy and fast.
Dont interrupt couch lances by jumping, some shower thought.

Unpopular opinion, nerf them to what they were before, it's a cheap way to get kills/dismounts and totally unnecessary for cavalry in Bannerlord. Pressing x into a groupfight shouldn't result in a free kill. Jumping should interrupt them. It's an unblockable oneshot attack, come on, why does **** like this need to be in the game.


Balancing

Team damage on your horse

Its broken or a weird setting, it should be at least the same as for team humans.
Not much to say about that, it's broken

Lances to Spear Relationship

Lances shouldnt be good at stabbing like spears, at the moment the lances are fast, long and high damage. It should be that lances are considerably slower and the stab damage should be even or lower then Spears. Their advantage is reach and couchability !
Agreed

Time to kill for Horses

Is simply way to long especially against heavy cav, needing like 15 hits by infantry slashes is too much. A horsearmour wiht 40 compared to a infantry with the around the same amount is weird, the human wears different layers of armour, the horse a chainmail carpet. Should be decreased by at least a third across the board.

HP should also be cut, a bigbrain move would be 200hp for a horse. That is along your line of 100 for a human.
Cavalrys life in a teamfight is too riskfree atm, as we wont return to whale hunting devices en masse.
You shouldnt balance horses not by the chance of knockdowns too hard but the risk you take by engaging enemy infantry.

Agreed, probably the biggest issue that's making cavalry too strong right now, horses are just too hard to kill with normal melee weapons.
 

Forsee

Regular
Time to kill for Horses

Is simply way to long especially against heavy cav, needing like 15 hits by infantry slashes is too much. A horsearmour wiht 40 compared to a infantry with the around the same amount is weird, the human wears different layers of armour, the horse a chainmail carpet. Should be decreased by at least a third across the board.

HP should also be cut, a bigbrain move would be 200hp for a horse. That is along your line of 100 for a human.
Cavalrys life in a teamfight is too riskfree atm, as we wont return to whale hunting devices en masse.
You shouldnt balance horses not by the chance of knockdowns too hard but the risk you take by engaging enemy infantry.

Imo that's the only thing you should do to make it well balanced. This change alone will make cav high risk - high reward class. I guess heavy horses dying for 2-3 bow headshots, and on just 2 rears don't need more nerfs, otherwise they would be unplayable, nerfing it's fighting potential on top of their survivability will make it high risk low reward.

Ofc I'm not talking about couches and double rear glitch, this should be reworked.

I'm not a cav player tho and I might be wrong about it.
 

hoonii

Sergeant
So, reading all the posts here can we agree on the ultimate cav nerf should be increasing the squishiness of horses so they won't stay in group fights as long as they can now?
I agree with that ON CONDITION that they won't get more vulnerable against archers. How can you do that? Pretty sure damage vs horses are calculated apart from damage vs infantry so increase the damage dealt for blunt and cut damage types against horse armor. Horse armor can be reduced by a bit but reducing it from 40 to 15 or something is just unacceptable.
 
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