Discussion about cavalry balance and knock downs

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hoonii

Knight
Not really had a chance to play with the new numbers surrounding horse armour and hp but then that wouldn’t change my stance that it doesn’t actually seem to matter what type of 1h weapon you hit the horse with it still seems to do absolutely nothing but 20hp Max.
Y'know me I'm a cav main and maces quite literally bully heavy horses rn, especially the Khuzait one.
And it makes complete sense, like unarmored horses are literal paper rn.
I actually did my research and lamellar and mail armor straight up counters swords but maces counter armor as it just ****s up the armor and injures the guy/horse inside.
In the old crusade records it actually is stated that armor used to be able to stop couch lances but that was not all the time, and if the guy survived he would be in a bad shape(NERF COUCH LANCE)
Though it also seems like lamellar armor straight up counters arrows as they just bounce off or break upon impact on lamellar but mail is weak against arrows as the arrow point just goes through the chains. But as I said maces counter both of them as it just ignores armor and that is the case in Bannerlord, I basically don't stay in fight with a khuzait infantry that has a mace because it deals so much damage to the heavy horses(I've seen them deal 70 damage to heavy horses).
You know you also need a bit of range to ready your attack so it just doesn't bounce off the horse.
 
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Not really had a chance to play with the new numbers surrounding horse armour and hp but then that wouldn’t change my stance that it doesn’t actually seem to matter what type of 1h weapon you hit the horse with it still seems to do absolutely nothing but 20hp Max.
cant say for other modes m8, but on siege using 1h mace spam in choke points allows you to massacre not only any inf including heavy, but also any heavy cavalry in a matter of seconds (it does about 30-60 dmg with each strike to head, and in most times you are facing horse into its face because of uhm directions of forces?)
 
Gotta agree on this. I think the problem is mostly how 'cheap' heavy cavalry is, considering it gets armoured horse AND lots of armour for character 'only' for 200 gold. Heavy infantry is 160 gold and I find it quite weird that horse is only worth of 40 gold (yes I know heavy infantry is faster etc).
well Thats a good and thought-up opinion at last, howewer TW is already aware of this and we will see heavy cav price increasings in next patch :p
 

Etonviper

Regular
1.Give heavy inf a base spear instead of it being a perk (make a long spear a perk if you want or add something new).
Also make a reared cav take more damage during the animation.
 

Mushbeast

Knight
1.Give heavy inf a base spear instead of it being a perk (make a long spear a perk if you want or add something new).
Also make a reared cav take more damage during the animation.
Very much agree. Give us hooked spears or long spears as a perk choice, but a regular spear is so vital that it should come free on most heavy classes.
 
What do you think of bump/knockdown frequency right now?
i think thats not the problem
What do you think of the power difference between heavy and light cavs and mounts in general?
i think hp of cav should be reduced, an archer should take down light cav in about 3 arrows,
ARMORED cav should not have to worry about arrows if they hit their heavy arrow which should DEFLECT them

cavalry should be a utility on the battlefield rather then tanks that do not fear melee or arrows

light cavalry should be alot faster then heavy cavalry and should be able to kite them to death in an open field,
light cavalry should be beaten by heavy cavalry only in small spaces

heavy cavalry role should be cavalry that is invulnerable to arrow fire
 

salad_fork

Squire
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't armor SUPPOSED TO counter swords/cut damage???(look up lamellar and mail armor, both are used as horse armor in this game)
Maces literally destroy heavy horses, come on bruh you can't expect everything to counter heavy horses in this game, what is the point then?
This, BUFF CAV. It sometimes takes two hits to kill an infantry as Cav, this is unacceptable since Infantry players only have one brain cell. That brain cell should be used to pick a better class like Skirmisher, Cav or Archer. The game is called MOUNT and Blade, not FOOT and Blade...
 
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jon01

Knight at Arms
Imagine if Nintendo made Mario OP in Mario Kart? And said: "It's called MARIO Kart, not Toad Kart. If you pick anyone other than Mario then you're dumb."

The MOUNTed cavalry aren't even using the BLADE anyway. They're swinging polearms around like a windmill. (And charging straight into walls often unimpeded while double-tapping every second as if they're the Batmobile.) Although in TDM, a lot of people complain about Cavalry Menavlion, so I guess that does follow the logic of the generic title...
 

hoonii

Knight
This, BUFF CAV. It sometimes takes two hits to kill an infantry as Cav, this is unacceptable since Infantry players only have one brain cell. That brain cell should be used to pick a better class like Skirmisher, Cav or Archer. The game is called MOUNT and Blade, not FOOT and Blade...
im not makin the meta sorry
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
Coming with the next beta (1.5.10), I adjusted the shield blocking cones for cavalry, by adding new cav only parameters to the .xml.

What are shield blocking cones?
The blocking cone is the area your shield is blocking melee attack in. Its affected by your stance (infantry only) and how you are holding the shield (x,y axis). Out of that we create a blocking area similar to how we do it for weapon blocking, but bigger.

Why change it on horseback?
The blocking cone on horseback was bigger than you would expect. It covered the horse below the foot, making it hard to strike there. Also it covered a lot of the flank of the horse. With changing it to be a bit narrower and not as low, players will be able to stab the horse and not get randomly blocked by the horse and attack the feet of the rider.

dIJzL.png

Before (the cone covers a lot of the horse, far below the feet and doesnt properly cover the front of the player)

lD-qg.png

After (the cone now mostly only covers the riders body, and barely the feet. Keep in mind that this debug view doesnt take the angle of the shield into account, in game the player will need to angle/move the shield to cover certain areas properly)
 
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Coming with the next beta (1.5.10), I adjusted the shield blocking cones for cavalry, by adding new cav only parameters to the .xml.

What are shield blocking cones?
The blocking cone is the area your shield is blocking melee attack in. Its affected by your stance (infantry only) and how you are holding the shield (x,y axis). Out of that we create a blocking area similar to how we do it for weapon blocking, but bigger.

Why change it on horseback?
The blocking cone on horseback was bigger than you would expect. It covered the horse below the foot, making it hard to strike there. Also it covered a lot of the flank of the horse. With changing it to be a bit narrower and not as low, players will be able to stab the horse and not get randomly blocked by the horse and attack the feet of the rider.

dIJzL.png

Before (the cone covers a lot of the horse, far below the feet and doesnt properly cover the front of the player)

lD-qg.png

After (the cone now mostly only covers the riders body, and barely the feet. Keep in mind that this debug view doesnt take the angle of the shield into account, in game the player will need to angle/move the shield to cover certain areas properly)
Good job. Me gusta.
 

DainMorgot

Sergeant
The changes are good but cav is a death machine that is too easy to play. Even I that I have never played cav can demolish people with the glaive or bumpstab. I would let the physics of the close-hit stop against cavs a bit more loose like in warband and would give infantry the ability to hit both the horse and the legs of the rider. Most problems with cav vs infantry on closed spaces are from the hit-stops. Cav should be afraid of infantry and spears, currently this is not the case. If a cav cannot drive the horse well then he should be punished. Add a damage received multiplier to the rider when the horse got stabbed by a spear and it plays the animation or/and when they hit a wall and they play the same animation.
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
The changes are good but cav is a death machine that is too easy to play. Even I that I have never played cav can demolish people with the glaive or bumpstab. I would let the physics of the close-hit stop against cavs a bit more loose like in warband and would give infantry the ability to hit both the horse and the legs of the rider. Most problems with cav vs infantry on closed spaces are from the hit-stops. Cav should be afraid of infantry and spears, currently this is not the case. If a cav cannot drive the horse well then he should be punished. Add a damage received multiplier to the rider when the horse got stabbed by a spear and it plays the animation or/and when they hit a wall and they play the same animation.
We are looking into the spear thrust damage curve. Making it deal damage earlier to you can stop horses easier and stab them from up close aswell. Ill get into detail about it once it gets close to being released.

The changes above should already help with close quarter inf vs cav fight a bit though.
 

Mushbeast

Knight
Coming with the next beta (1.5.10), I adjusted the shield blocking cones for cavalry, by adding new cav only parameters to the .xml.

What are shield blocking cones?
The blocking cone is the area your shield is blocking melee attack in. Its affected by your stance (infantry only) and how you are holding the shield (x,y axis). Out of that we create a blocking area similar to how we do it for weapon blocking, but bigger.

Why change it on horseback?
The blocking cone on horseback was bigger than you would expect. It covered the horse below the foot, making it hard to strike there. Also it covered a lot of the flank of the horse. With changing it to be a bit narrower and not as low, players will be able to stab the horse and not get randomly blocked by the horse and attack the feet of the rider.
These sound like great changes. Sometimes when you stab at a horse and the rider is blocking, the shield will block even though the spear clearly would have hit the horses head/torso first, will these changes help with that?
 

Einarcf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Sounds better. But ofc will need to test. There are times I feel shield is a bit too forgiving when shooting riders with passive block from behind.

Making foot shots on rider coming from front more viable is interesting. Now I can punish riders if they elect to just hold shield up and knock me down (which I fear will be meta with nerfing horse headshots next patches)
 

DainMorgot

Sergeant
We are looking into the spear thrust damage curve. Making it deal damage earlier to you can stop horses easier and stab them from up close aswell. Ill get into detail about it once it gets close to being released.

The changes above should already help with close quarter inf vs cav fight a bit though.

The problem is not only the difficulty of hitting a horse... it's also about how much damage it tanks.... It currently takes an outrageous amount to get a horse down with swords/spears unless they are in full speed, which is almost never the case since the meta is the speed boost after double W. Another really broken thing is the fact that they get a speed damage boost on their weapons even if the horse is relatively normal in its running speed... A glaive can 1 shot most things for example. That might be a glaive issue, but I had outrageous damage numbers happen with a mace or axe too. If I am not mistaken, horses do not bump friendlies, which is a massive, massive mistake.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
These sound like great changes. Sometimes when you stab at a horse and the rider is blocking, the shield will block even though the spear clearly would have hit the horses head/torso first, will these changes help with that?
All I want to know.
 
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