Cav is OP -Lesler (LORD OF CAV)

Should horse hp be lowered?


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I just wanted to let the devs know from someone who almost exclusively played cavalry in Warband, NW, and in Bannerlord; cavalry is super overpowered in Mount&Blade: Bannerlord! In Warband and even more so in NW, cavalry was a glass cannon. It took only 3 arrows to kill the hunter and if you were stopped the follow-up jump stab was usually a one-shot kill. To fix cavalry in Bannerlord, horses should be given base health of 175, couch lancing should be rebalanced, all cavalry should be given shields by default (with some exceptions), Battanian and Bedouin cav should be given throwable weapons by default, and hitboxes of horses/horsemen need to be more precise.

Currently, the worst horse in the game, in terms of health, is the tarpan at 190 but the base horse for Courser and Vanguard starts at 220. The Vanguard can then add a further 36 armor by taking half barding; the Mamluke horse starts at 230 with 25 armor but with barding, it gets 235 hit points and 42 armor. Short of the tarpan, there is no horse in this game that cannot be turned into a tank. Even the Battanian dale pony starts at 215 but if with the tougher horse it is getting 260hp. Then additionally, barding adds 29 armor creating an unkillable medieval tank. The Knight with the tougher horse has 270 hp with 44 armor and I have NEVER seen a knight's horse die in a skirmish match (~1000 played). If the hp for a knight was 200 but the tougher horse got it to 220; that would be more balanced and realistic. HOWEVER, the damage output also needs to be fixed in that case.

The fact that my couched lance being delivered at 25 miles per hour with 2000 pounds behind it won’t one-shot that fat glorified peasant legionary because he was "running away from me at 3-6mph" is absurd. Couch lancing at any speed within the couching threshold should be a one-shot on foot troops and when used on cavalry, should always one-shot a horse unless it is running in the opposite direction. In the current game state, a head-on couch lance will sometimes not kill, or even glance the other guy’s horse and if the horse being couched isn’t moving FORGET ABOUT IT.

Additionally, any cavalry unit that has to make a choice between the lance or the shield negates the lance’s worth because it is not reasonable to bring a lance and no shield, especially with the effectiveness of archers and throwable weapons. Shields should be standard on all cavalry units. Taking shields from cavalry for balance purposes isn't enjoyable for anyone. The only cav in-game who should have to take a perk or shouldn't even be offered a shield at all are Empire Cataphract and Kuhzait cav. To balance the Cataphract it should have 55 armor, leave its horse at 250 hp, and increase knotos damage to 55. It should not be allowed to take a shield and then it might be viable and played like the devs intended. I think the unit looks laughable with that baby shield and spear. Kuzait cav would be WAY more viable if horses got nerfed. Lancers and nomads would take bows because they could actually whittle down horses allowing for diverse playstyles rather than cavalry “metas”.
Battanian and Bedouin cavalry should be given throwable weapons by default which would make them viable when playing against other factions in competitive matches. The Battanian’s are supposed to have the “weakest” cavalry unit since they lack a heavy option as well as a lance. Permanent throwables would be an adequate buff to the unit propagating competition with heavier cavalry units such as the Knight. In turn, Bedouins should be given Jarids again because that would be a lot of fun (teehee :smile:).

Fixing the hitboxes of horses and their riders would make duels between horsemen more precise and skill-based. Currently, when fighting with melee weapons on horseback against other cavalry units, the horseman’s shield seems to cover their entire body, including their backs, as well as about 33% of the horse’s body. The current meta is to turtle by holding a shield block and hide behind their horse’s high hp (*cough cough Melon*). This mechanic does not really make sense. A small heater shield (for example) should not prevent a sword stroke to a rider’s legs or horse’s ribcage when the rider is holding that shield to cover their body. The shield on horseback seems to have a shadow hitbox that covers a majority of the horse as well, making mounted hand-to-hand combat lackluster and unimaginative. If the shield were to only cover the rider’s body like a footman’s shield does, then cavalry players would be forced to dodge, parry, or at least attack back to survive combat (@MELON <3).

Cavalry in Bannerlord can be fixed by giving horses base health of 175, rebalancing couch lancing, giving shields by default to most cav units, giving default throwable weapons to Battanian and Bedouins, and adjusting the hitboxes of horses/horsemen especially in the case of shields. These are just my thoughts and opinions, and therefore I wanted to start a discussion around this topic to see some positive change in the competitive Bannerlord scene.




Where is my bug finder badge?
 
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Surreal120

Master Knight
WBNWVC
Have to say I agree with Les here. The biggest problem with heavy cav is how tanky the horse is. If the horse is made more fragile then cav is balanced IMO. Couching could use some work but bump stabbing is in a good place. That being said, archers need some kind of nerf aswell is a reduction in horse hp is made.
 

Dextrus

Sergeant
Preach it. Cut cav HP by half. You pay 200 gold for the hp of 3 heavy inf spawns, but you actually do dmg.

Rearing is also so random. I have no idea how the calculation works and how much speed and dmg dealt are needed to rear a horse, but smetimes you wont rear a horse for a 100dmg and sometimes you rear it for a 19dmg glance hit.

The hitboxes for the Cav spears are also broken.
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
I still say that slowing down the horses would would be the best way to balance them. Lowering the top speed and acceleration of cav would do a lot to make them more punishable and give Infantry and archers a window for counterplay without changing cavs role on the field as a shock and flank class.

I think many people who have been playing Bannerlord exclusively for the past 10 months (and especially the devs who have been working on Bannerlord exclusively for the last 5 years) have forgotten just how slow the cav were in Warband. While they were still obviously much faster than the infantry, cav in warband were almost 50% slower than in Bannerlord. The fastest horse in warband (which was absurdly squishy and was basically a 1 hit kill no matter what you hit it with) is slower than many of the heavily armored Warhorses the 200g cav classes have in Bannerlord. Despite this, cavalry were still considered very strong. Really shows just how absurd they are now.
 
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soul_jak

Sergeant at Arms
I still say that slowing down the horses would would be the best way to balance them. Lowering the top speed and acceleration of cav would do a lot to make them more punishable and give Infantry and archers a window for counterplay without changing cavs role on the field as a shock and flank class.

I think many people who have been playing Bannerlord exclusively for the past 10 months (and especially the devs who have been working on Bannerlord exclusively for the last 5 years) have forgotten just how slow the cav were in Warband. While they were still obviously much faster than the infantry, cav in warband were almost 50% slower than in Bannerlord. The fastest horse in warband (which was absurdly squishy and was basically a 1 hit kill no matter what you hit it with) is slower than many of the heavily armored Warhorses the 200g cav classes have in Bannerlord. Despite this, cavalry were still considered very strong. Really shows just how absurd they are now.
Have heavy horses double tap away slower
 
I still say that slowing down the horses would would be the best way to balance them. Lowering the top speed and acceleration of cav would do a lot to make them more punishable and give Infantry and archers a window for counterplay without changing cavs role on the field as a shock and flank class.

I think many people who have been playing Bannerlord exclusively for the past 10 months (and especially the devs who have been working on Bannerlord exclusively for the last 5 years) have forgotten just how slow the cav were in Warband. While they were still obviously much faster than the infantry, cav in warband were almost 50% slower than in Bannerlord. The fastest horse in warband (which was absurdly squishy and was basically a 1 hit kill no matter what you hit it with) is slower than many of the heavily armored Warhorses the 200g cav classes have in Bannerlord. Despite this, cavalry were still considered very strong. Really shows just how absurd they are now.
The devs made cavalry way more fun in bannerlord. Cav was too slow in warband
 
In my opinion just slowing down the cav wouldn't be enough to give infantry a better chance, when it just give a chance to maybe do one more weak attack on them. I think they are a bit too tanky myself.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
I don't think the issue is related to horse hp directly. The issue is, whenever something is reported as unbalanced, TW's first action is nerfing the **** of that whatever unit/weapon is so that at the end it becomes something like a toothpick or super slow.

I understand that there should be a gap between MP and SP damages for mp balance but hell, you are attacking a person with a long sword and it's giving 13 damage while in SP a fricking rock can damage 16 hp? I say no to that. And those hitboxes are a joke. Unreliable and making the game more like For Honor than physics-based M&B.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
When your current gameplan as inf is to take the classes with one shot throwing weapons just so you can kill horses instead of the pikes then you know something is wrong.

Throwing spear does 290 dmg at a charging horse usually, as you've pointed out that is more than enough for all cav to die in one hit. Pike does at most 100 and rears them, before you can even get another stab in they will block it and double W away. It should be the other way around, the throwing spear should weaken, the pike should obliterate them. The cav players can avoid a pikeman, they cannot avoid a throwing spear.

I just think certain mechanics need fixing, the way a cav standing still does more damage with his thrusts than my inf ass stabbing up at him. I've said this since the beta that hitboxes on cav just aren't right, I can see my spear impaling the enemies head and it tells me it's hit the horses neck. Tighten these things up along with the rearing changes recently and I think it would be enough to see cav in a proper spot.

Oh yeah and put couch lances on a cooldown, jesus christ.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Many topics about this but will post my usual input:

-Massively reduce the top speed of horses as @EbdanianAdmiral correctly points out and I've said before. Not only will it reduce their DPS, but it was also make them more vulnerable to archers and more able to be heard and reacted to by infantry.

-Reduce armour massively, if it must remain, it needs a huge drawback e.g. VERY slow horse.

-Decrease manoeuvrability at high speed, increase it at low to medium speeds.

-Have WW on a cooldown, disallow immediately after rear up.

-Make foottroops unable, or much much harder, to be pushed around by cav.

-Do something with their weapons/thrust animation to discourage freely stabbing at close range and doing 50 damage. Generally this would be with slower stabs.

-Easier to get reared up by the environment, and also other horses should rear cav if they are run into fullspeed.

As I've said elsewhere, if you completely removed the heavy cav class from the game, the light cav would still be picked and still would be very strong. As @EbdanianAdmiral notes, in Warband cav were dramatically weaker than BL cav, and were still dominant, arguably OP. There is no room for tweaking a stat here or there on this class, it is extremely strong and simply applying minor buffs to inf won't cut it. Honestly if you want a class that counters cav, that's archers, and nobody is calling for buffing them.
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
The biggest issue is cav speed compared to warband. A mailed horse is almost faster than the courser in warband.
 

Gibby Jr

Marquis
The biggest issue is cav speed compared to warband. A mailed horse is almost faster than the courser in warband.

very true, heavy horses in warband were very slow and could be trapped in engagements because they didn't push people out of the way. heavy horses like war horses or chargers were almost as hard to kill as heavy horses are in bannerlord, the difference being that they weren't available in round 1 in warband because of their cost, were very slow, couldn't push players out of the way and did not accelerate quickly so couldn't escape if they got stuck. these drawbacks were significant enough that many cavalry wouldn't even upgrade to the heavy horse and preferred to stick with the Hunter, even if they had the gold for it.

all of OGL's suggestions are a good idea.
 

Ulfkarl

Regular
in real life a horse with no armor wouldn't survive 2 sword swings on his neck, but in the game you can hit them 10 times and it does nothing
 

Roadpork

Veteran
right now the horse is easier to be rear on a higher speed than a lower speed.
if we have the opposite. it will be perfect for both of inf and cav.
 

Brandis.

Subforum Moderator
From a game theory perspective:

I don't see it often mentioned, but cav are tanks (horse HP/armor, can park in front of people and be a meatwall), DPS (they have one-shot damage potential at speed, stab damage throughout a match, this is very high against bad players and on pub servers), opportunists (spawn camp, mobility to finish weak targets, ability to turn separated 1v1 or 2v2 into their teams favor, able to respawn the fastest, flanks), they're also the ONLY support class with hard CC with knockdowns, can bodyblock, and can capture flags.

All this to say, if cav ended up bottom frags in almost every game they played in, cav would still be 'good' due to the extreme number of additional tasks and unique value they can provide. In fact, it would be expected that this class have the least damage of all the classes (although a decent final blow count due to chase/opportunist potential).
 

Crypex

Veteran
To nerf cav we need
1) Drop Horse Health to
Tougher Horse=150
Agile/Faster Horse = 120
Charger Horses = 125
Standard Horse =130

Horse Armor is Okay and I feel it scales properly with class level.

2) Damage should not be dependent on speed but instead, be more consistent. Damage should scale based on where the horse is hit.
3) Most important nerf needs to be adjusting the animations for riders attacking. The riders have a long swing range so if this is to be decreased should put inf and cav on the same level.

Example: Setting up stabs from far right to stab regardless if you are hugging a person with a 208 length lance/spear
 
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