Can we do something about the khuzaits?

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I like the Khuzait being aggressive and expansive against the AI. It makes them like the big bad guy and then the Vlandians can be like the hero to save the day late game... or not.
The player can easily intervene as a merc, vassal or even all on your own! You can just walk up to them and deliver your demands and then ask for peace when you're done!
If you can't beat them or can't get your party together fast enough you are still learning the very basics of the game and don't need to worry about the long game anyways. I've posted a lot about how to beat HA formations (probably in this thread even) so I wont get into that.

I do think the AI should have to buy all it's horses from actual existing stocks though and not be spawned with any at all. This would reduce the annoyance and power of the Khuzait AI a fair deal.

"As long as they don't reach your archer line" is important to foot archers

f4 and you can easily re-position them and outrun the attacking enemy. You can also retreat.
HA are better overall because of ease of use and map speed, but you have to pay for horses so you should be getting something useful in return.
If they were worse then foot archers in anyways they would not be used anymore, just like in warband.

The incremental +0.4 to +0.6 movement speed bonus from Khuzait culture is by far the best in the game.

I agree it's the best heritage by far, mostly because it is useful at all stages of the game. Imperial is good only for siege and fiefs, Vladnian only when raising troops, which may be constantly or hardly ever past the mid game depending what you do. It's funny all the game journalist and youtubers where all about the Vlandian exp bonus when it wasn't even coded in.

I wish the 275 riding perk worked. I have gotten about 5 chars to riding 275+ and it still hasn't been coded in. They'll probably not add that when they update perks, seems too powerful.

I think bottom line is HA and khuzaits are fine and balance need to come from better traits, AI and mechanics (armor) for the other factions.
I'm all for other stuff too like for example what if The Khergit clan does a civil war if Khuzait gets beyond so many fiefs?

 

[Apocal]

The incremental +0.4 to +0.6 movement speed bonus from Khuzait culture is by far the best in the game. By itself, it adds almost as much as the movement speed gap between a full army of 'Footmen on horse' and a full army of 'Cavalry'.

Hell no the Khuzait bonus isn't the best in the game. The cavalry bonus is bigger, much bigger, in almost any circumstance a player might find themselves in. It is right there in the tooltip:

If it genuinely added 10% to just the 'Cavalry' bonus of an army, as intended in the tooltip, I'd be fine with it - but it adds 10% to the 'Base' speed of any Khuzaiti-led army, even a pure infantry one. It's broken.

Yes, it is bugged. No, that doesn't make it better than the cavalry bonus. That's why I said:

...you get essentially the same impact you describe of the Khuzait cultural bonus just from running an all-cav party. As long as you yeet anything with two legs instead of four, you will always be substantially faster than an AI lord party.

Being able to chain-farm AI lord parties for almost no losses is not something unique to the Khuzaits. With the same composition (HAs and a few cav) you ca pull it off using Aserai or Imperial factions. With a different composition you can do it with Battanians as well, although you're slower on the map.

 

[Sidrath]

I like the Khuzait being aggressive and expansive against the AI. It makes them like the big bad guy and then the Vlandians can be like the hero to save the day late game... or not.

I quite like the idea of a big bad to fight! But I'd rather it not be any of the original factions - they should honestly all achieve some type of theoretical parity of potential (albeit with very different strengths and weaknesses). For me, the big bad would need to be some sort of external event, maybe set to occur 30 years in: a major invasion from off-map (like the Chaos Invasions of TW: Warhammer 2). And it'd be up to the player to help fend off such an invader - or join it.

 

[Sidrath]

Hell no the Khuzait bonus isn't the best in the game. The cavalry bonus is bigger, much bigger, in almost any circumstance a player might find themselves in. It is right there in the tooltip:

Again, my point is to compare like-with-like, hence my references to 'Footmen on horse' and 'Cavalry'. Anyone running an Infantry comp will have stacked horses in Inventory, or else they will literally never catch anything running from them and certifiably go bankrupt. The 'Footmen on horse' bonus will give you a significant proportion of that 'Cavalry' bonus back (I'd estimate close to 2/3 of it). Rough guess, I'd say in your example the Infantry-Cav gap is 0.8 movement speed, the Feat is 0.41 movement speed. You're right that 'Cavalry' goes a good deal faster than 'Footmen on horse', but that 0.41 is still an amazing edge for a cultural choice, and by far the best in the game. I'm not sure why you'd try to debate this.

 

[Apocal]

Again, my point is to compare like-with-like.

This is like-with-like: both are map movement speed bonuses. Remember, I brought this up as a response another poster being surprised he could chain-farm AI lord parties for minimal losses. The practical impact is what is important and the biggest enabler is the cavalry bonus being 2.2+ even once you grow past 250 cavalrymen in your party.

(As an aside, I'm surprised people are just now discovering the power of ranged units in this game. It was the sort of thing I noticed instantly because all my infantry were dying in droves fight after fight, while my archers and horse archers were surviving to get upgraded. Pretty soon I was down to something like six infantry but with 120+ archers and still winning battles easily.)

The 'Footmen on horse' bonus will give you a significant proportion of that 'Cavalry' bonus back (I'd estimate close to 2/3 of it). Rough guess, I'd say in your example the Infantry-Cav gap is 0.8 movement speed, the Feat is 0.41 movement speed.

It is more like half, given equal numbers of footmen and horsemen.

I'm not sure why you'd try to debate this.

You were interjecting to say I was wrong about all-cavalry player parties (without the Khuzait culture bonus) being just as able to catch lord parties. Because those lord parties are chock full of infantry and barely get the footmen on horses bonus. If you don't disagree with that, then you've been arguing with someone else while quoting me.

 

[Sidrath]

An unfortunate misunderstanding then, I don't disagree with you on all-cavalry player parties being capable of catching lord parties. They are merely not 'just as able', unless they're Khuzait. My point is specifically that Khuzait players do the catching up faster. "You waste significantly less time narrowing the gap, and have a much more effective uptime pounding whichever faction is unlucky enough to be opposing your Khuzait force," to be precise. You'll manage either way; the Khuzait player will waste less time doing the catch up - and indeed in some cases, catch the enemy before they can join an army, enter a settlement, etc. If you're chasing a smaller Khuzait party, it pays to be Khuzait yourself to cut down on the chase.

For the record, I appreciate the injection of screenshots and data - working with numbers and precise ratios - so thank you for adding those. I think you can appreciate the impact a free 0.4-0.6 movement speed bonus can have on the game. If AI Lords get this cultural bonus, it will often be just enough to ensure a sieging Khuzait army can run from an approaching defending army, overcome its temporary 'Disorganised' movement speed malus and escape to safety. And conversely, a sieging non-Khuzait army will never manage to escape a Khuzait defending army.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I'm surprised people are just now discovering the power of ranged units in this game. It was the sort of thing I noticed instantly because all my infantry were dying in droves fight after fight, while my archers and horse archers were surviving to get upgraded.

I noticed this from the first few rounds of Captain mode in MP beta "Wow nobody knows how to block arrows and horses have no armor..... I'm sure they'll patch that soon.....".
Ranged units were much easier to level up then infantry in warband too. However in Warband heavy Cav was so good that you were even better off just using them. HA in warband had nefred AI (in original M&B) so they wouldn't circle around, so they were just inferior in all ways to just using foot archers.

 

[Apocal]

I think you can appreciate the impact 0.4-0.6 movement speed can have on the game. If AI Lords get this cultural bonus, it will often be just enough to ensure a sieging Khuzait army can run from an approaching defending army, overcome its temporary 'Disorganised' movement speed malus and escape to safety. And conversely, a sieging non-Khuzait army will never manage to escape a Khuzait defending army.

Oh, believe me, I know the feat has an impact and it being bugged certainly doesn't help the situation any. I'm just lukewarm on how much it matters though because even when it wasn't working (pre-1.3 IIRC?), the Khuzaits performed above expectations. Even before they had more horsemen in their armies, due to recruit-spam (1.2?), they were noted to be snowballing more readily than other factions.

FWIW, I think the early issue is that they do/did pretty well with their starter armies having lots of horsemen (around 45%) and the cavalry autocalc bonus working for them against the Northern Empire. The Imperial starter armies have some cavalry, but not nearly as much and their garrisons have relatively few as well. (This might have changed in the last few patches.)

As for my solutions to the Khuzait steamroll?
1. Cavalry getting an autocalc bonus during sieges is silly. Either have none at all or give the autocalc bonus to infantry during sieges instead.

2. Starter armies should be mostly recruits while garrisons are well-stocked to prevent startgame shenanigans like Amprela or Syonera falling because there physically isn't enough time to gather enough forces to beat the Khuzait army that besieges it.

3. Sieges should take longer in general, long enough that even Sturgia-tier mobilization speed won't let anyone, regardless of mapspeed, get away with sneak-sieging. If Khuzaits are better able to break off and survive, fine, but don't let them sneak-siege settlements because that is a lasting penalty to the losing faction.