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Balance Patch: design insights + full changelog

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CaNpoG

Recruit
As stated in the comments, this seems very much like a balance patch mainly for skirmish. Are there bigger plans regarding Captain mode balance (apart from restricting/removing ramboing, which has been mentioned earlier)?
The main issues I see are:

1. Abusing AI in multiple ways with your captain, including ramboing (this one is the biggest). This category includes the exploit in which a captain with a shield will go sit in front of a fight with a shield and block 99-100% of all arrows which would otherwise be shot at his troops. Another example is a shock infantry captain looting a shield and a horse and riding ahead of his troops, taking all the arrows while his troops advance at enemy archers.
This is simply game breaking cheesing and should not be possible. Two massive fixes would be a) The ability to command troops to fire at a target, or make them ignore the enemy captain more easily and b) Not allowing players to loot equipment or horses in Captain mode.

2. Archers are really, really terrible if the enemy knows that shield infantry and cav exist. Now the only way you can do well with archers is to somehow be able to get a crossfire or flank going on, which usually means you need to be far off on your own somewhere on the side of a fight where you will get destroyed by a lone rambo cav and your melee infantry will be outnumbered in the melee OR most of the enemy team is shock infantry with no cavalry and have bad positioning. Right now shields have a 100% chance of blocking everything coming at them from the front. It makes archers useless if there aren't at least 2-3 squads of them on your team who can manouver perfectly while kiting and flanking, which will become useless when one rambo cav will interrupt their shooting and kill half the squad in one life. There needs to be a way for archers to actually have an impact.

3. Skirmishers have very many similar problems as archers, but actually do even worse since unlike archers, It's horribly difficult to utilize their ranged weapons effectively when you actually get a chance. They are also pretty terrible in melee compared to the proper melee classes. They need to be made faster so you could harrass and kite with them effectively. Now they are so slow that this will happen 99% of the time:
First off, you go close enough (max 15 meters away) to the enemy so your troops will hit them with most projectiles. Then if they are shield infantry, nothing happens since the javelins don't really do any damage to the shields. If the enemy chases you, the skirmishers are so marginally faster that you don't have time to turn around and get a good volley of javelins on the enemy anymore. Possibly only some few single javelins lobbed somewhere over them.
A good role for them would be a fast flanking class, who would do really hard damage on short range with limited ammo. They could either run at the enemy, get a few volleys at the enemy shields and destroy many of them and then retreat, having made the enemies more vulnerable to allied archers and also melee combatants or flank around and punish carelessly positioned enemies with huge damage from short range. After their ammo is used, they would fight as super-light infantry, keeping the focus on their ranged damage capabilities.

So in other terms, archers are long range, sustained damage with low mobility and high ammo. Skirmishers would be the opposite with very short range, burst-damage with very high mobility and very limited ammo. Javelins should be rebalanced to not deal about 15-50 damage on hit depending on armor, but more like 100, and have "bonus against shields". This big damage increase is balanced simply by having limited amounts of ammo and the obvious fact that bots (and the player) will definitely not hit 100% of the time.

4. All of the above put together, making the two main "tactics" of Captain a) Cheesing by using rambo cav and other AI abuse and b) infantry blobs.

Sorry for the long text, I have no life. Cheers!
 

Khan’s Guard​

  • New default bow
    • Recurve bow
  • 1st Perk
    • Shield and Heavy Mace
      • Grants shield from Hardened perk
      • Grants Khuzait Heavy Mace
    • Composite Bow
      • Grants Composite bow
      • Draws faster, deals more damage but is less accurate
  • 2nd Perk
    • Mobility
      • -25% movement speed penalty when aiming
      • -80% accuracy penalty when turning
      • -80% accuracy penalty when moving
      • Replaces Hardened perk
This info may be for skirmish mode but khans also got access to the recruitments perk in captains. With recruitment and glaive perks I've been able to win any fair (1v1, 2v2,..6v6) melee engagement. Recruitments on khans feels like a step back towards one perk beats all. That being said, I've been enjoying the balance changes, thanks for all your hard work :grin:
 

jon01

Knight at Arms
I'll take realistic combat over naked peasants 1 hitting knights with 2 handers anyday of the week.
"Realistic combat"


It can look pretty cool, but I wouldn't exactly call it "realistic" like you suggest.

Those laggy, crazily modded DM Arena servers in Warband you're talking about barely count as Native, by the way...


I guess Duel servers can come to look like that too, but in other places like Battle mode the combat typically looks like this:


It's wrong to say there are "naked peasants 1 hitting knights with 2 handers" there.
 

VicbossOG

Regular
"Realistic combat"


It can look pretty cool, but I wouldn't exactly call it "realistic" like you suggest.

Those laggy, crazily modded DM Arena servers in Warband you're talking about barely count as Native, by the way...


I guess Duel servers can come to look like that too, but in other places like Battle mode the combat typically looks like this:


It's wrong to say there are "naked peasants 1 hitting knights with 2 handers" there.

I mean, every single person in that tournament I just watched is wearing exactly ONE piece of armour... the helmet. The rest of their attire is literally the lighest cloth you can take because armour is meaningless in Warband, and in Bannerlord it is not. Warband also has the exact same weird looking spin strikes that you're showing me in your Bannerlord video so I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make with it. Is it 100% realistic? Of course not. Is it better than Warband? Undeniably so.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
I mean, every single person in that tournament I just watched is wearing exactly ONE piece of armour... the helmet. The rest of their attire is literally the lighest cloth you can take
Not true, these are typically tier 2-3 armour, not the default, and when players have enough gold they upgrade armour pretty regularly. Armour is pretty good in Warband.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
@NIN3 Hey, I wanted to ask: do you plan adding a great lance perk for the vlandian knight at any point? I understand it's gonna be quite a task to make it balanced, but I don't think it's impossible and it'll add a familiar flavour back from Warband times.
 

jon01

Knight at Arms
I mean, every single person in that tournament I just watched is wearing exactly ONE piece of armour... the helmet. The rest of their attire is literally the lighest cloth you can take because armour is meaningless in Warband, and in Bannerlord it is not. Warband also has the exact same weird looking spin strikes that you're showing me in your Bannerlord video so I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make with it. Is it 100% realistic? Of course not. Is it better than Warband? Undeniably so.

It's not me trying to say Warband's melee is "realistic". I thought by bringing up naked peasants with 2h weapons (like you get in those crazy DM servers) you were suggesting the feintspamming in particular made it less realistic. I was trying to show that it exists in Bannerlord too (possibly to an extent that's much more unreadable than in Warband, although I'd rather let others give their opinion on that right now). I wasn't saying it doesn't exist in Warband, and clearly I already know about it, because I posted a video of myself playing on one of those servers.

Here are some different armour pieces that were worn by players in that video alone (let alone "the tournament"):

Helmets:

Desert Turban
Sarranid Mail Coif
Sarranid Veiled Helmet
Nordic Leather Helmet
Nordic Fighter Helmet
Cap with Fur
Spiked Cap
Helmet with Neckguard
Flat Topped Helmet

The cavalry also opted to not wear a helmet in some rounds, presumably so they could afford upgraded versions of other items instead.

Body armour:

Archer's Padded Vest
Sarranid Leather Armour
Sarranid Guard Amour
Cavalry Robe
Leather Jerkin
Byrnie
Blue Tunic
Lamellar Vest
Leather Vest
Aketon
Haubergeon
Red Gambeson
Mail Shirt
Mail Hauberk
Leather Armour

There were many more armour pieces the players could have chosen, and more probably were chosen outside of the highlights shown. The commentators even bothered to talk about armour chosen at one point and mentioned how it allowed a player (Tomayus) survive so well on the flag, so the armour obviously did make a difference. I can discern between all of these armour pieces visually, but a few of the body armour might look similar. The names alone don't infer the differences. Leather types can look different, such as the bright yellow leather for Sarranids compared to Nords, and the leather for cavalry. The lack of visual disparity between Nord and Vaegir infantry (if they're both wearing leather jerkins specifically) is definitely a valid criticism that's been brought up by players before, but it's got nothing to do with realism, and they're certainly not "naked peasants".

Meanwhile, take a look at the same-ness of the bots in Captains:


And, honestly, the mechanics of cavalry in MP is probably among the least realistic M&B has ever been.
 

VicbossOG

Regular
It's not me trying to say Warband's melee is "realistic". I thought by bringing up naked peasants with 2h weapons (like you get in those crazy DM servers) you were suggesting the feintspamming in particular made it less realistic. I was trying to show that it exists in Bannerlord too (possibly to an extent that's much more unreadable than in Warband, although I'd rather let others give their opinion on that right now). I wasn't saying it doesn't exist in Warband, and clearly I already know about it, because I posted a video of myself playing on one of those servers.

Here are some different armour pieces that were worn by players in that video alone (let alone "the tournament"):

Helmets:

Desert Turban
Sarranid Mail Coif
Sarranid Veiled Helmet
Nordic Leather Helmet
Nordic Fighter Helmet
Cap with Fur
Spiked Cap
Helmet with Neckguard
Flat Topped Helmet

The cavalry also opted to not wear a helmet in some rounds, presumably so they could afford upgraded versions of other items instead.

Body armour:

Archer's Padded Vest
Sarranid Leather Armour
Sarranid Guard Amour
Cavalry Robe
Leather Jerkin
Byrnie
Blue Tunic
Lamellar Vest
Leather Vest
Aketon
Haubergeon
Red Gambeson
Mail Shirt
Mail Hauberk
Leather Armour

There were many more armour pieces the players could have chosen, and more probably were chosen outside of the highlights shown. The commentators even bothered to talk about armour chosen at one point and mentioned how it allowed a player (Tomayus) survive so well on the flag, so the armour obviously did make a difference. I can discern between all of these armour pieces visually, but a few of the body armour might look similar. The names alone don't infer the differences. Leather types can look different, such as the bright yellow leather for Sarranids compared to Nords, and the leather for cavalry. The lack of visual disparity between Nord and Vaegir infantry (if they're both wearing leather jerkins specifically) is definitely a valid criticism that's been brought up by players before, but it's got nothing to do with realism, and they're certainly not "naked peasants".

Meanwhile, take a look at the same-ness of the bots in Captains:


And, honestly, the mechanics of cavalry in MP is probably among the least realistic M&B has ever been.

How are you going to even try to compare the two games by posting one video of players skirmishing and another video of players in Captain Mode? Why not make an ACTUAL even comparison between the two games instead of deliberately seeking to make Bannerlord look worse? It's not like there aren't videos of people in Bannerlord skirmish mode but you misleadingly post a video of Captain Mode trying to prove your point that armour between the two games is comparable... when it's incredibly apparent it's not.
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
We have released another small hotfix today.
  • Fixed the default perks
    • The game will remember again which perks you have chosen and select them for you.
    • Keep in mind that your perks might reset if you choose the 4th perk "Duel Sword" in Duel mode on the heavy infantry classes.
  • Fixed some client crashes
    • If you still encounter crashes please upload the log afterwards with the crash uploader
    • Especially the loading screen flickering one
  • It seems that many lobby disconnect problems have been solved
    • If you still have issue make sure you flush your DNS cache
    • If it doesn't help, let us know
 

Horatius

Banned
WBNWVC
We have released another small hotfix today.
  • Fixed the default perks
    • The game will remember again which perks you have chosen and select them for you.
    • Keep in mind that your perks might reset if you choose the 4th perk "Duel Sword" in Duel mode on the heavy infantry classes.
Godspeed to you good sir.

Sounds kind of hacky fix but I love it.

edit: maybe add a version check for the big red announcement. I did update it but still get it which is kind of confusing, nothing important tho.
 
We have released another small hotfix today.
  • Fixed the default perks
    • The game will remember again which perks you have chosen and select them for you.
    • Keep in mind that your perks might reset if you choose the 4th perk "Duel Sword" in Duel mode on the heavy infantry classes.
  • Fixed some client crashes
    • If you still encounter crashes please upload the log afterwards with the crash uploader
    • Especially the loading screen flickering one
  • It seems that many lobby disconnect problems have been solved
    • If you still have issue make sure you flush your DNS cache
    • If it doesn't help, let us know
Thank you so much for that perk reset thing, you do not understand how annoying that is. You done a great thing today
:Salute~1:
 

CaNpoG

Recruit
Meanwhile, take a look at the same-ness of the bots in Captains:


And, honestly, the mechanics of cavalry in MP is probably among the least realistic M&B has ever been.
Amazing, of all the soundtracks you could've chosen, you chose to have Pokémon Stadium's magikarp splash minigame sounds on the background.

You truly are a man of uttermost culture.
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
The game will remember again which perks you have chosen and select them for you.
Finally, thank you. I never realized how important these small quality of life improvements for me until I was given one and then it was taken away.
 

NIN3

Level Design, Combat Design
Developer
NW
@NIN3 Hey, I wanted to ask: do you plan adding a great lance perk for the vlandian knight at any point? I understand it's gonna be quite a task to make it balanced, but I don't think it's impossible and it'll add a familiar flavour back from Warband times.
Are you talking about swadias long and slow lance with the tournament guard?
Probably wont have something like this in native Bannerlord. We dont have an asset for it and it doesnt really fit the period. Sorry
 
Certainly I have already spoken out here in a serious and constructive way among other threads, but now all that remains is the meme effect that I know you like and appreciate so much. The horses and stairs thing is a meme ****fest in sieges, no need to point out any spots in any map... just enjoy this video 🎷:iamamoron: :

That music... 🎷🔥
53f61d4cecad04ba47f34f7a
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
Are you talking about swadias long and slow lance with the tournament guard?
Probably wont have something like this in native Bannerlord. We dont have an asset for it and it doesnt really fit the period. Sorry
Dang, well thanks for the answer.
 

jon01

Knight at Arms
How are you going to even try to compare the two games by posting one video of players skirmishing and another video of players in Captain Mode? Why not make an ACTUAL even comparison between the two games instead of deliberately seeking to make Bannerlord look worse? It's not like there aren't videos of people in Bannerlord skirmish mode but you misleadingly post a video of Captain Mode trying to prove your point that armour between the two games is comparable... when it's incredibly apparent it's not.
It just seems strange that you'd make such a tedious remark about Warband that's all the more applicable to a game mode in Bannerlord that you've been defending in this thread.
Amazing, of all the soundtracks you could've chosen, you chose to have Pokémon Stadium's magikarp splash minigame sounds on the background.

You truly are a man of uttermost culture.
There were two other Captains-related videos I made that used Wagner's Die Walkure and Bach's Mass in B Minor.
 
Last edited:

Robis

Knight
WB
I see videos with lot of blocks and seemingly fluid combat. Is multiplayer playable now? It has been 5 months since last time I played, thanks.
 
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