An open letter from the Kingdoms of Arda team, and the total-conversion mod community

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Jance said:
Intentional or not, this can easily be interoperated as defending Taleworlds since you are trying to disenfranchise our side of this debate.
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It wasn't meant to be for either side, that was my intention. I'm just watching from the sidelines. But if you see it from my perspective as someone new to the forum and seeing all the back and forth, you kinda get why I want to stay neutral. I'm not into fighting, but just watching what the eventual outcome is.
Jance said:
I think you are misunderstanding. The answers they are giving can be trusted, but they are intentionally obscure because they can't (and definitely shouldn't) make promises they can't keep. That's why until we get a solid answer saying "we will remove all the usages of the internal keyword" we're not really going to be satisfied.
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Gotcha ya, I'm not into modding other than messing with xmls and stuff so if thats what it means than I differ to your judgment.
 
RoamingCharges said:
It wasn't meant to be for either side, that was my intention. I'm just watching from the sidelines. But if you see it from my perspective as someone new to the forum and seeing all the back and forth, you kinda get why I want to stay neutral. I'm not into fighting, but just watching what the eventual outcome is.

Gotcha ya, I'm not into modding other than messing with xmls and stuff so if thats what it means than I differ to your judgment.
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Once you get the taste of how Taleworlds interacts and how they talk, it will become clear when they are doing something or not.
 
Bloc said:
Anyway, I'm done with modding. I will release one last thing because I promised to some people and don't want to waste their efforts but apart from that, I'm done with modding to this game.
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Thank you for all the hard work.
Your Freelancer mod was literally the only reason why I was able to get some enjoyment out of the game again. I guess Bannerlord will be shelved once again.
 
Well gents, what I foresee is the end of a franchise. Maybe M&B can somehow rise from the ashes of catastrophe in some way in the future, but I wouldn't be betting precious hopes on it. If modding privileges can't be met to the community's standards, then this game doesn't have much of a future. Nor should it, if this situation is to be the fate of Bannerlord. The community appears to be powerless, no cries, begs, or thoughtful requests will be listened to, as usual. We need a new game from someone else, preferably a small, humble development team. Small dev teams appear to have a lot of professionalism and polish in their games compared to a decade ago, and it's mostly smaller teams from which I buy games and trust these days (though not all of them, obviously). M&B is such an incredible concept, and I can't imagine anyone else not attempting to perfect what TW started. Even if M&B doesn't fully die, without serious competition, this franchise is hopeless. But for now, this ship is sinking, and I'll be staying just to revel in the magnificent awe of collapse. I've put more time into studying history than probably anything else in my life, and what I've learned is that you can never put your faith in humanity for anything. They will almost always severely disappoint. So don't have hopes for Bannerlord. We're at the end of an era, I reckon. Despite the high ratings on Steam and the many sales, this game just does not have lifeblood and a future for it, and it will not have the kind of momentum needed to keep this thing going.
 
Bannerlord_Development.png
 
I've read most of this, and I think to have somewhat of a grasp on what is happening. The internal issue means that mod devs cannot access parts of the code that would be integral to making better mods for Bannerlord, which for many is an incredibly important part of this game. TW then said that they will be working on it and then did not remove it whatsoever, instead saying to wait for the 1.6.0 update to roll around.

Where my confusion is why is there such a backlash to this? Is it possible to wait for the update to roll around and then give TW more feedback on it? The game is still clearly in EA, so things are a bit difficult at the time. I don't want to seem as if I am pandering to either side, I am just somewhat confused as to the somewhat harsh reactions to the news, such as Bloc no longer even modding for the game.

Once again, I apologize is I come off as being dismissive, I really do not want to, I just want to better understand the issue and hopefully a more diplomatic outcome. Bloc's mod is an incredibly popular one, and it is a shame to see someone with such talent leave the modding community.
 
Phantom425 said:
I've read most of this, and I think to have somewhat of a grasp on what is happening. The internal issue means that mod devs cannot access parts of the code that would be integral to making better mods for Bannerlord, which for many is an incredibly important part of this game. TW then said that they will be working on it and then did not remove it whatsoever, instead saying to wait for the 1.6.0 update to roll around.

Where my confusion is why is there such a backlash to this? Is it possible to wait for the update to roll around and then give TW more feedback on it? The game is still clearly in EA, so things are a bit difficult at the time. I don't want to seem as if I am pandering to either side, I am just somewhat confused as to the somewhat harsh reactions to the news, such as Bloc no longer even modding for the game.

Once again, I apologize is I come off as being dismissive, I really do not want to, I just want to better understand the issue and hopefully a more diplomatic outcome. Bloc's mod is an incredibly popular one, and it is a shame to see someone with such talent leave the modding community.
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Did you read this? https://docs.google.com/document/d/...6znYETQcdxeN_hwadmwm1Ev0YBR0_NQUCioNmpWSg/pub
It's from about two months ago.
 
momo1 said:
Did you read this? https://docs.google.com/document/d/...6znYETQcdxeN_hwadmwm1Ev0YBR0_NQUCioNmpWSg/pub
It's from about two months ago.
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I have, and I just see an issue with the solutions aspect, this in particular "To fix the hardcoding issues, TaleWorlds needs to start thinking about their code from the perspective of a modder". TW's priority at this moment is to ensure that the game is actually released and is a fun experience in it of itself. These constant patches that break mods will continue until the game is out of EA, so they probably want to focus entirely on that. They can't think like a modder when making their code until they have finished their game, which after that they will most likely, I hope, focus more on making modding much more easy.

Ngl, in my own opinion, they should not have launched Bannerlords in EA. While I do greatly enjoy the game, and honestly prefer the game with mods then without, I think that if they had waited longer to make sure that the game is fully finished and then launched with a lot more options for modders and lot of issues just would not have arisen in the first place.

To boil down my point to just one sentence, I think patience is needed, as I am pretty certain that these tools will eventually come, we just need to wait.
 
Phantom425 said:
I've read most of this, and I think to have somewhat of a grasp on what is happening. The internal issue means that mod devs cannot access parts of the code that would be integral to making better mods for Bannerlord, which for many is an incredibly important part of this game. TW then said that they will be working on it and then did not remove it whatsoever, instead saying to wait for the 1.6.0 update to roll around.

Where my confusion is why is there such a backlash to this? Is it possible to wait for the update to roll around and then give TW more feedback on it? The game is still clearly in EA, so things are a bit difficult at the time. I don't want to seem as if I am pandering to either side, I am just somewhat confused as to the somewhat harsh reactions to the news, such as Bloc no longer even modding for the game.

Once again, I apologize is I come off as being dismissive, I really do not want to, I just want to better understand the issue and hopefully a more diplomatic outcome. Bloc's mod is an incredibly popular one, and it is a shame to see someone with such talent leave the modding community.
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I appreciate your being chill about your confusion.

Basically this is the first substantive response to the open letter from 2 months ago and it was a turkey-slap to the community.

Modders: "Here's our problem."
TW: "We've discussed your problem and are addressing it soon."
Modders: "OK so you're fixing the thing causing the problem?"
TW: "Well we're removing some of that thing and we're also adding more of it. You'll see how much when the release comes out."
Modders: "Uh... why?"
TW: *CRICKETS*

Phantom425 said:
Ngl, in my own opinion, they should not have launched Bannerlords in EA.
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Well we agree on one thing at least. The first release of BL was basically in alpha-state and it was clear then that fixes from playtesting were minimal to nonexistent. It was an insult to the fans to charge money for that bug-riddled release with virtually no features fully implemented.

Phantom425 said:
To boil down my point to just one sentence, I think patience is needed, as I am pretty certain that these tools will eventually come, we just need to wait.
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I don't think it's at all reasonable to assume that BL will release with things like high-level code documentation or sensible internals or solid modding tools... let alone access to things like hardcoded AI.

What evidence do you have that this will happen? I'm asking that seriously. TW devs and community guys have promised tons of stuff over the years but not delivered.

Because it would be corporate suicide to release a M&B game without modding support?

Given the lack of engagement with their most dedicated fans over the past year and change (including the 2 months it took after a modder revolt open letter to get even this out of them), I don't give them even that much credit.
 
bonerstorm said:
Modders: "Here's our problem."
TW: "We've discussed your problem and are addressing it soon."
Modders: "OK so you're fixing the thing causing the problem?"
TW: "Well we're removing some of that thing and we're also adding more of it. You'll see how much when the release comes out."
Modders: "Uh... why?"
TW: *CRICKETS*
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Well, to this, I would say before abandoning the game for modding wait for the release and see why. If I am being frank, the response that I saw from a lot of the people who were criticizing TW was rather combinative. I understand the frustration entirely, but when wanting to get a good response, it isn't always the best to bite the hand that feeds you. If the hand feeds you **** afterwards, then you can, although I think it would be best to be a bit more diplomatic about it.
bonerstorm said:
What evidence do you have that this will happen? I'm asking that seriously. TW devs and community guys have promised tons of stuff over the years but not delivered.
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This is a fair critique of what I said, but you answered my question right afterwards.
bonerstorm said:
Because it would be corporate suicide to release a M&B game without modding support?
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It would be suicide to release a M&B game without good modding support. TW isn't stupid, they know that a big part of why the game is alive is because of that modding support. Mods built upon a good game and worked to make it even better. They have no reason to commit corporate suicide because they want their game to survive and thrive. Why make a quick buck off of Bannerlord when you can create a thriving community and then release later expansions that will get you more money?
 
Phantom425 said:
If the hand feeds you **** afterwards, then you can, although I think it would be best to be a bit more diplomatic about it.
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I don't know if you're using a sock or an alt, but your profile says you joined the forum literally 2 hours ago.

We've been eating s*** for well over a year now. Some of us were in the beta and have been eating s*** for nearly 2 years. And every day we get brand-new people on the forum urging everyone to stop complaining because we might offend the devs.

If you look back at the posts from a year ago, you'll find a lot of us saying the same stuff you're saying now. Most of us got bored or banned or blackpilled through harsh experience being constantly ignored + belittled by TW.

Not me, though: I was blackpilled from the start. As soon as the game dropped and I saw the state it was in, I complained. As soon as the first couple patches came out and NONE of our complaints were addressed... but a ton of random nerfs against things like caravans and autobattle xp were dropped... I went full-on darkside.

The fans in the forums are the closest to the action, which means we actually know what's going on - unlike the love-fests on Reddit and Steam. Most of the things fans complain about in new posts are the same things fans were complaining about literally a year ago.

Here's my first ragepost from 1 year and 1 month ago. Of the 5 complaints I registered (which nearly all repliers agreed with), none of them have been fixed and only one of them has even been substantively addressed (town starvation).

Like you know how cavalry always blasts through dense spear infantry like a sledgehammer through butter and shieldwalls do literally nothing? That is ON PURPOSE.

Here's a post from almost TWO YEARS AGO talking about it:
 
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bonerstorm said:
I don't know if you're using a sock or an alt, but your profile says you joined the forum literally 2 hours ago.
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Ngl, I made this account just to post on this thread. I really don't want modding to die out to this game, and I wanted to just try and make my point. I have an understanding of what is happening, and I completely understand the frustration towards TW, there is a reason why I'm not just going "Oh how could you stop modding?". I completely empathize with this issue, and I want to see it resolved.
bonerstorm said:
And every day we get brand-new people on the forum urging everyone to stop complaining because we might offend the devs.
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I will say, I don't think people should stop complaining, I don't even see it as complaining. I've read over the document, and I do see these as valid critiques that are being leveled at TW. I am not saying to be less harsh towards TW because I'm worried it'll hurt their feelings, I'm saying so so that they might listen more. People who levy insults and come off as standoffish will not get the same response as people who are more relaxed. And I know what your point will be, that you've been waiting for years so the attitude is worth it. I understand this, but my point is just to wait until EA is out to get a bit more harsh. If the game still has these issues after EA, then yes I do believe that taking a more aggressive approach is necesary, as if the problems are not finished by that point then quite frankly I do not think that they ever will be. Dejan made a post to say wait until 1.6.0 and then give them feedback, and giving back feedback on what is already present is valid, I think that it would be better to wait for the update to come and then give them more. You all clearly have TW's attention, as this modding strike is effective, I just don't think it is being used the best.
bonerstorm said:
Not me, though: I was blackpilled from the start. As soon as the game dropped and I saw the state it was in, I complained. As soon as the first couple patches came out and NONE of our complaints were addressed... but a ton of random nerfs against things like caravans and autobattle xp were dropped... I went full-on darkside.
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Yeah, this is valid. The game very clearly is not in a good state at the moment, but that is also part of my point. TW should make a good game first, and then work to make sure the modders can have their way with it anyway they see fit.

Also, I will say, after the response to Dejan's comment, you all were a bit harsh. He goes that you can discuss the changes further after the patch drops, but then everybody went that this was TW basically crapping in everyone's hands. The avenue to discuss future change was there, but it seems that it may be missed, as the response to it was rather hostile. Let 1.6.0 drop and see what happens, as to my understand we don't even know which internal values have been changed and added. The fact that they are even looking at this shows that they are willing to start to work, even if it is the smallest amount.

Once again, my entire point to this is that people should be slightly more patient if they can be. Wait for 1.6.0 to drop, and then evaluate what it does and does not do. After doing so, make sure to organize a similar group and bring forward you complaints. This way, TW knows what to do, and they may even make sure to make more room for modders to have more access in the future. The diplomatic route is not awful, and it can be done correctly. I personally want to see these mods thrive, as the most fun that I had in Warband was with a total conversion mod.
 
Fun fact for @Phantom425 --> of all the people who white-knighted for TW in my ragepost one year ago, exactly one of them is still here. Of the thirteen souls who responded that my complaints were irrational or premature because it's early access - only he and I remain.

The Innocent (last activity was April-May 2020): @Sylvanaz PunchtownHero @DeeperReaper @quitmoaning @Midnitewolf

The Veterans (lasted until June-Oct 2020): @Lithane97 @jamesdelanight @TheWitchIzalith @TheCalradian DeadEnd

The Lost (deleted account or no last known activity): @eddiemccandless @Dr-Shinobi

The Lone Survivor: @Demoulius

So @Demoulius ... I'm curious... in April of 2020 you said:
While the things you post are defenitly issues that need to be fixed, il say what probably alot of other will say; and have said. It is early acces. I wouldnt call it early alpha either, early beta would be accurate though. The game is far from finished but essentially playable.

They themselves said that they expected to need at least a year to complete the game. Im genuinely wondering what kind of state people were expecting the game to be in?
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Do you still feel the same way? :iamamoron:

EDIT: apparently @Carabus is still here too but just lurking.
 
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bonerstorm said:
Fun fact for @Phantom425 --> of all the people who white-knighted for TW in my ragepost one year ago, exactly one of them is still here. Of the eleven souls who responded that my complaints were irrational or premature because it's early access - only he and I remain.
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Don't misconstrue what I am saying for white knighting for TW. I am not under any delusion that Bannerlord is in a perfect state, I've even made that clear. All that I am saying is that there are better ways to get your point across. I got this game when it came out, and I have been playing it on and off ever since, and I do have issues with the game. Firstly, it lags an incredible amount. Secondly, the grind is a little too much for me. And thirdly, I think that there could be a couple more scenes added to the game for castles and towns. That is the reason why I have made my point, TW should focus on making the game playable and a good game before they try and make it easier for modders. And, if they don't, then Bannerlord will be a failure compared to WB, even though I do consider to have gotten my money's worth from the game.

All in all, all that I am saying is at least wait for them to release 1.6.0, and then work together to better communicate with the people at TW who you can and try and get as much done as possible. What happened in this thread was, at first, incredibly constructive, but then it became rather destructive. After people saying that what was happening was bull****, I doubt that TW is going to be willing to communicate and work with modders more often. I'm not saying that you have to suck up to TW and say that everything they do is good, no, that is as destructive as anything as there are a lot of issues with the game. What I am saying is be patient and be diplomatic, and if that fails then you can go onto different avenues. There was a breakthrough in this thread, I don't want it to be wasted.
 
Phantom425 said:
TW should focus on making the game playable and a good game before they try and make it easier for modders.
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You need to re-read the discussion then so that it becomes clearer to you. Modders aren't asking TW to dedicate some large amount of focus to them in this particular instance. They're asking TW to CTRL+F their code, find all instances of "internal" that are used for coding, and delete them. That's an hour's worth of work at most.

TW's response was that "internal" is being left in because of mod compatibility.

Modders' response to that was that "internal" doesn't actually aid mod compatibility from everything they have seen themselves.

TW's response to that was... "we've made our stance clear. We're removing some, but also adding in some more instances of internal. You know, that thing you customers improving our game for free hate and want gone. We're not elaborating further".

Phantom425 said:
All in all, all that I am saying is at least wait for them to release 1.6.0, and then work together to better communicate with the people at TW who you can and try and get as much done as possible. What happened in this thread was, at first, incredibly constructive, but then it became rather destructive.


What I am saying is be patient and be diplomatic
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Imagine you bought a lego set and wanted to use it to make other designs you could share with your friends, but someone at Lego had superglued the pieces together, and when you called customer support to ask why, they took 2 months to get back to you, and wouldn't give you a straightforward answer when they finally responded.

Would your feedback be constructive at that point?

Now also bear in mind everyone here has been waiting patiently for TW for 9 years, and that TW has been incredibly slow through the whole development process, and that everyone was hoping modders would at least be able to pick up the slack where TW couldn't manage with 100 employees and hundreds of millions of dollars. Now are you capable of seeing why things have gotten to this point?
 
@Phantom425 Check these out.


forums.taleworlds.com

Statement regarding Plans for Singleplayer and Engine III

Warriors of Calradia, It is time to share another update on some of our current singleplayer and engine related priorities with you. Just like before, stability and performance will continue to be a top priority for us. Beyond that, you will find some of our other goals listed below. Please...
forums.taleworlds.com forums.taleworlds.com
 
five bucks said:
You need to re-read the discussion then so that it becomes clearer to you. Modders aren't asking TW to dedicate some large amount of focus to them in this particular instance. They're asking TW to CTRL+F their code, find all instances of "internal" that are used for coding, and delete them. That's an hour's worth of work at most.
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I am well aware of that, I also read the input given by TW itself. All that I am saying is wait for 1.6.0, take stock of what that patch brings, and then compile the issues and make sure they are made. They have made the internal issue known, and they have acknowledged it, which is progress. After 1.6.0, make sure to compile a similar letter and continue from there. Would @Dejan be willing to further work with modders in order to ensure that both parties can do what they want
five bucks said:
Imagine you bought a lego set and wanted to use it to make other designs you could share with your friends, but someone at Lego had superglued the pieces together, and when you called customer support to ask why, they took 2 months to get back to you, and wouldn't give you a straightforward answer when they finally responded.

Would your feedback be constructive at that point?
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This is a valid analogy, except for a few parts. Firstly, the Lego set is not complete, and has parts missing. Lego released this set early to people who wanted to buy it, and has been working on it to try and finish it. The glued bricks is a massive issue, and the response has not been stellar, but there are other more pressing issues to deal with first.

Another point on whether or not my feedback would be constructive. If I wanted my feedback to be taken seriously, and make sure that I can work with Lego to make sure I can build my Lego set in the future, I would try and approach the situation as diplomatically as I could. I would make sure that it is known that I am quite upset with the state of my Lego set, but I would make sure I communicate that I want to best for my Lego set and for other people's Lego sets.

As stated before, I completely understand the frustration. In your position, I would also be completely frustrated. But, there is an opportunity here that should not be missed. Clearly, the modder strike has gotten attention, capitalize on that.
 
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