1.5.3 RIP Horse archers

[Ling*]

Shields are not magnets

I feel like I should have a giant disclaimer before any post that just says : I'm never talking about skirmish when I talk about units, classes, or perks and balance. All my viewpoints are from the perspective of a Captain Mode EXCLUSIVE player. The reason Shock troops are so damn broken in Captain is because archers ai are trash aim, firerate, and movespeed whereas shocks are too fast and deal too much damage, deal cleave damage, and can swing faster than 1handed weapons, and Taleworlds keeps making balance changes meant to improve skirmish, LIKE NERFING ARCHERS and BUFFING SHOCKS, and even nerfing the most USELESS UNIT: Skirmishers (Spear throwing units) by reducing their accuracy and taking away several pieces of ammo from their quiver, to the detriment of captain mode balance. Shields in captain mode are more than sufficient when it comes to blocking arrows, you aren't just one unit anymore, you are dozens, you can cover more area. And by the way, with how the Ai is programmed, shields ARE like magnets, just place them anywhere inbetween your allies and the enemy archers and they WILL fire at your shields.

You can't tell me they took away 2 javelins from skirmisher units because they were too strong in captain mode, that is absolutely wrong they were and always have been the WORST unit for the game mode, they made this balance decision purely to benefit Skirmish mode players that were complaining about how op Kick+Javelin was and that throwables are too strong in 1 on 1 battle modes like skirmish, so they reduced the units ammo stack and made it so you can't quickly toss a javelin accurately to appease them. Making combat balance decisions based on 1 on 1 combat for a game that is designed to focus around large scale battles is absolutely baffling to me and it needs to stop. Separate the balances already, because if I have to read one more post about Archers being too strong i'm going to absolutely lose it.

 

[Horatius]

I feel like I should have a giant disclaimer before any post that just says : I'm never talking about skirmish when I talk about units, classes, or perks and balance. All my viewpoints are from the perspective of a Captain Mode EXCLUSIVE player. The reason Shock troops are so damn broken in Captain is because archers ai are trash aim, firerate, and movespeed whereas shocks are too fast and deal too much damage, deal cleave damage, and can swing faster than 1handed weapons, and Taleworlds keeps making balance changes meant to improve skirmish, LIKE NERFING ARCHERS and BUFFING SHOCKS, and even nerfing the most USELESS UNIT: Skirmishers (Spear throwing units) by reducing their accuracy and taking away several pieces of ammo from their quiver, to the detriment of captain mode balance. Shields in captain mode are more than sufficient when it comes to blocking arrows, you aren't just one unit anymore, you are dozens, you can cover more area. And by the way, with how the Ai is programmed, shields ARE like magnets, just place them anywhere inbetween your allies and the enemy archers and they WILL fire at your shields.

You can't tell me they took away 2 javelins from skirmisher units because they were too strong in captain mode, that is absolutely wrong they were and always have been the WORST unit for the game mode, they made this balance decision purely to benefit Skirmish mode players that were complaining about how op Kick+Javelin was and that throwables are too strong in 1 on 1 battle modes like skirmish, so they reduced the units ammo stack and made it so you can't quickly toss a javelin accurately to appease them. Making combat balance decisions based on 1 on 1 combat for a game that is designed to focus around large scale battles is absolutely baffling to me and it needs to stop. Separate the balances already, because if I have to read one more post about Archers being too strong i'm going to absolutely lose it.

Skirmishers were nerfed because they were horribly OP in skirmish because they only cost 90-100 (forgot) and you could get 6 javelins while spawning three times with decent weapons. Not just the kick and throw.

Like TW has said, they first (try to) balance for skirmish and then move on to other modes. Currently, because the game is in continously development it means that captain is somewhat ****ed.

You could say that you have to give captain and skirm different balances but this will be very annoying so you would have to make entirely new classes for the game modes which isn't great either.

As for now TW has decided it keeps the same balance within every gamemode which is the optimal solution if they get it right(imo). The consequence of this decision is that captain is sorta second rank (as for siege and TDM).

 

[hoonii]

I feel like I should have a giant disclaimer before any post that just says : I'm never talking about skirmish when I talk about units, classes, or perks and balance. All my viewpoints are from the perspective of a Captain Mode EXCLUSIVE player. The reason Shock troops are so damn broken in Captain is because archers ai are trash aim, firerate, and movespeed whereas shocks are too fast and deal too much damage, deal cleave damage, and can swing faster than 1handed weapons, and Taleworlds keeps making balance changes meant to improve skirmish, LIKE NERFING ARCHERS and BUFFING SHOCKS, and even nerfing the most USELESS UNIT: Skirmishers (Spear throwing units) by reducing their accuracy and taking away several pieces of ammo from their quiver, to the detriment of captain mode balance. Shields in captain mode are more than sufficient when it comes to blocking arrows, you aren't just one unit anymore, you are dozens, you can cover more area. And by the way, with how the Ai is programmed, shields ARE like magnets, just place them anywhere inbetween your allies and the enemy archers and they WILL fire at your shields.

You can't tell me they took away 2 javelins from skirmisher units because they were too strong in captain mode, that is absolutely wrong they were and always have been the WORST unit for the game mode, they made this balance decision purely to benefit Skirmish mode players that were complaining about how op Kick+Javelin was and that throwables are too strong in 1 on 1 battle modes like skirmish, so they reduced the units ammo stack and made it so you can't quickly toss a javelin accurately to appease them. Making combat balance decisions based on 1 on 1 combat for a game that is designed to focus around large scale battles is absolutely baffling to me and it needs to stop. Separate the balances already, because if I have to read one more post about Archers being too strong i'm going to absolutely lose it.

Ok seriously though Aserai skirmishers were %100 broken, 6 strongest javelins in the game and perfect accuracy even whilst moving and ability to spawn as them 3 times in a single match without losing any gold sounds broken doesn't it. In skirmish Aserai would always go for skirmisher spam because it was very cost effective and whole community was abusing it. It was needed, I can't say anything about captain though, that's where the idea of splitting unit balances for captain and skirmish or making a whole new unit system from scratch for either captain or skirmish cause one update for skirmish breaks captain and vice versa.

 

[Ling*]

As for now TW has decided it keeps the same balance within every gamemode which is the optimal solution if they get it right(imo). The consequence of this decision is that captain is sorta second rank (as for siege and TDM).

You can't possibly hope to achieve a balance in all the modes when you use the same classes, I don't care how annoying it is to implement, if they don't create unique classes for captain mode, they are going to lose a big chunk of their dedicated MP audience.

 

[Ling*]

Ok seriously though Aserai skirmishers were %100 broken, 6 strongest javelins in the game and perfect accuracy even whilst moving and ability to spawn as them 3 times in a single match without losing any gold sounds broken doesn't it. In skirmish Aserai would always go for skirmisher spam because it was very cost effective and whole community was abusing it. It was needed, I can't say anything about captain though, that's where the idea of splitting unit balances for captain and skirmish or making a whole new unit system from scratch for either captain or skirmish cause one update for skirmish breaks captain and vice versa.

Im sure this was the right decision for Skirmish. It was absolutely the WRONG decision for Captain mode, and this I think takes us to your last point where we are on the same page.

 

[Firunien]

I feel like I should have a giant disclaimer before any post that just says : I'm never talking about skirmish when I talk about units, classes, or perks and balance. All my viewpoints are from the perspective of a Captain Mode EXCLUSIVE player. The reason Shock troops are so damn broken in Captain is because archers ai are trash aim, firerate, and movespeed whereas shocks are too fast and deal too much damage, deal cleave damage, and can swing faster than 1handed weapons, and Taleworlds keeps making balance changes meant to improve skirmish, LIKE NERFING ARCHERS and BUFFING SHOCKS, and even nerfing the most USELESS UNIT: Skirmishers (Spear throwing units) by reducing their accuracy and taking away several pieces of ammo from their quiver, to the detriment of captain mode balance. Shields in captain mode are more than sufficient when it comes to blocking arrows, you aren't just one unit anymore, you are dozens, you can cover more area. And by the way, with how the Ai is programmed, shields ARE like magnets, just place them anywhere inbetween your allies and the enemy archers and they WILL fire at your shields.

You can't tell me they took away 2 javelins from skirmisher units because they were too strong in captain mode, that is absolutely wrong they were and always have been the WORST unit for the game mode, they made this balance decision purely to benefit Skirmish mode players that were complaining about how op Kick+Javelin was and that throwables are too strong in 1 on 1 battle modes like skirmish, so they reduced the units ammo stack and made it so you can't quickly toss a javelin accurately to appease them. Making combat balance decisions based on 1 on 1 combat for a game that is designed to focus around large scale battles is absolutely baffling to me and it needs to stop. Separate the balances already, because if I have to read one more post about Archers being too strong i'm going to absolutely lose it.

Skirmish is not a 1v1 mode, it's absolutely baffling to me you keep calling it and needs to stop ?. Javelins were not nerfed because of their 1v1 ability. Kick throw was tackled through another mechanic, you will get a slight bump when somebody gets close to you when throwing weapon is out. But because it was totally unfun to get shot and thrown all the time, humans are way more dangerous aiming that things. This balance changes are for every mode but captain, you keep calling out changes only for Skirmish, which they aren't they are for all game modes humans fight each other, like Siege and TDM and all upcoming modes. I hope like you for a separated balance between the modes classes, BUT human vs human balancing should come first, not in a 1v1 way. Like now it's not the problem of the accuracy change, but rather that the bots didn't work properly with it, these deep combat changes are what early access is there for, and the game has come a long way from when I started concerning movement, combat and perk choices.

 

[Ling*]

Skirmish is not a 1v1 mode, it's absolutely baffling to me you keep calling it and needs to stop ?. Javelins were not nerfed because of their 1v1 ability. Kick throw was tackled through another mechanic, you will get a slight bump when somebody gets close to you when throwing weapon is out. But because it was totally unfun to get shot and thrown all the time, humans are way more dangerous aiming that things. This balance changes are for every mode but captain, you keep calling out changes only for Skirmish, which they aren't they are for all game modes humans fight each other, like Siege and TDM and all upcoming modes. I hope like you for a separated balance between the modes classes, BUT human vs human balancing should come first, not in a 1v1 way. Like now it's not the problem of the accuracy change, but rather that the bots didn't work properly with it, these deep combat changes are what early access is there for, and the game has come a long way from when I started concerning movement, combat and perk choices.

No one plays siege. And theres like 60 people who play TDM, compared to Skirmish and Captain audience those numbers are insignificant, therefor it is understandable that you guys are the primary focus for balance changes. I'm not even going to begin to comment on what is good or isn't good for the balance of Skirmish, I don't know #1 and I don't care #2. I don't blame Skirmish players at all for wanting to improve the balance of their mode, you guys are just doing what is right to help make your game mode more enjoyable. However the collective suggestions made by Skirmish players forum posts (and non skirmish as well) is seeping its way into Captain Mode balance and it has absolutely KILLED Captain Mode. 1.5 came out 2 months ago, we have had 2 solid months of UNPLAYABLE, literally UNPLAYABLE balance for captain. I can't imagine the stink the skirmish community would raise on the forums if your guys' gamemode was in the state ours has been in for the last 2 months.

To top it all off, on the week of Captain League's Semi-Final matches for Season 1, 1.5 was released. During. Our. Semi-Finals. IT BROKE THE MODE. During. Our. Semi-Finals. A 6 week long event culminating in this big moment, and guess what Shock Troop Spam 6v6 time, such a disappointing way to finish off an otherwise successful season.

 

[Firunien]

No one plays siege. And theres like 60 people who play TDM, compared to Skirmish audience those numbers are insignificant, therefor it is understandable that you guys are the primary focus for balance changes. I'm not even going to begin to comment on what is good or isn't good for the balance of Skirmish, I don't know #1 and I don't care #2. I don't blame Skirmish players at all for wanting to improve the balance of their mode, you guys are just doing what is right to help make your game mode more enjoyable. However the collective suggestions made by Skirmish players forum posts (and non skirmish as well) is seeping its way into Captain Mode balance at it has absolutely KILLED Captain Mode. 1.5 came out 2 months ago, we have had 2 solid months of UNPLAYABLE, literally UNPLAYABLE balance for captain. I can't imagine the stink the skirmish community would raise on the forums if your guys' gamemode was in the state ours has been in for the last 2 months.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that you shouldn't have to wait such a long time especially if the balance is that bad atm. I just hope it's improving now that AI can shoot better and shocks get nerfed by nerfing crushthrough, how is the state of cavalry in Captain?

 

[hoonii]

Last I checked yesterday at 6 P.M in German time 0 players were searching for skirmish for 15 minutes straight. There was a total of approximately 20 people searching in general. Maybe I should change the thread from RIP Horse Archers to RIP Bannerlord

 

[Firunien]

Last I checked yesterday at 6 P.M in German time 0 players were searching for skirmish for 15 minutes straight. There was a total of approximately 20 people searching in general. Maybe I should change the thread from RIP Horse Archers to RIP Bannerlord

After the last update my search region was set to NA, maybe for you too.

 

[Ling*]

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that you shouldn't have to wait such a long time especially if the balance is that bad atm. I just hope it's improving now that AI can shoot better and shocks get nerfed by nerfing crushthrough, how is the state of cavalry in Captain?

Cavalry Ai is pretty garbage at the moment: A. They don't couch lance. B. They don't stay close enough behind the player or in a tight enough formation when on "follow me", or when charging. C. The easy rearing is still absolutely nonsensical, but probably helps for the "battle modes". D. Basically still only viable if you play like "Rambo" with only your captain unit.

 

[hoonii]

After the last update my search region was set to NA, maybe for you too.

Nah I checked it was EU.

 

[hoonii]

Cavalry Ai is pretty garbage at the moment: A. They don't couch lance. B. They don't stay close enough behind the player or in a tight enough formation when on "follow me", or when charging. C. The easy rearing is still absolutely nonsensical, but probably helps for the "battle modes". D. Basically still only viable if you play like "Rambo" with only your captain unit.

Rearing from behind or sides and couch lance being too inconsistent is a big problem in skirmish, siege and tdm too. Both aspects are very inconsistent, sometimes even if you hit with the couch lance its just "Nope you didn't, its a bounce" and horses getting reared with 10 damage or from behind, ugh.

 

[Vattghern]

I feel like I should have a giant disclaimer before any post that just says : I'm never talking about skirmish when I talk about units, classes, or perks and balance. All my viewpoints are from the perspective of a Captain Mode EXCLUSIVE player. The reason Shock troops are so damn broken in Captain is because archers ai are trash aim, firerate, and movespeed whereas shocks are too fast and deal too much damage, deal cleave damage, and can swing faster than 1handed weapons, and Taleworlds keeps making balance changes meant to improve skirmish, LIKE NERFING ARCHERS and BUFFING SHOCKS, and even nerfing the most USELESS UNIT: Skirmishers (Spear throwing units) by reducing their accuracy and taking away several pieces of ammo from their quiver, to the detriment of captain mode balance. Shields in captain mode are more than sufficient when it comes to blocking arrows, you aren't just one unit anymore, you are dozens, you can cover more area. And by the way, with how the Ai is programmed, shields ARE like magnets, just place them anywhere inbetween your allies and the enemy archers and they WILL fire at your shields.

You can't tell me they took away 2 javelins from skirmisher units because they were too strong in captain mode, that is absolutely wrong they were and always have been the WORST unit for the game mode, they made this balance decision purely to benefit Skirmish mode players that were complaining about how op Kick+Javelin was and that throwables are too strong in 1 on 1 battle modes like skirmish, so they reduced the units ammo stack and made it so you can't quickly toss a javelin accurately to appease them. Making combat balance decisions based on 1 on 1 combat for a game that is designed to focus around large scale battles is absolutely baffling to me and it needs to stop. Separate the balances already, because if I have to read one more post about Archers being too strong i'm going to absolutely lose it.

You are damn right. By the way In beta, the captain mod was much better, then archers and cavalry mattered, although the cavalry was still not viable even then. But for now ... you can take the full Shock Infantry kit and you win. No tactics one grinder.

 

[Caps]

I feel like I should have a giant disclaimer before any post that just says : I'm never talking about skirmish when I talk about units, classes, or perks and balance. All my viewpoints are from the perspective of a Captain Mode EXCLUSIVE player. The reason Shock troops are so damn broken in Captain is because archers ai are trash aim, firerate, and movespeed whereas shocks are too fast and deal too much damage, deal cleave damage, and can swing faster than 1handed weapons, and Taleworlds keeps making balance changes meant to improve skirmish, LIKE NERFING ARCHERS and BUFFING SHOCKS, and even nerfing the most USELESS UNIT: Skirmishers (Spear throwing units) by reducing their accuracy and taking away several pieces of ammo from their quiver, to the detriment of captain mode balance. Shields in captain mode are more than sufficient when it comes to blocking arrows, you aren't just one unit anymore, you are dozens, you can cover more area. And by the way, with how the Ai is programmed, shields ARE like magnets, just place them anywhere inbetween your allies and the enemy archers and they WILL fire at your shields.

I was talking about cpt mode having shields wont guarantee the units to not get hit in the feet.

You can't tell me they took away 2 javelins from skirmisher units because they were too strong in captain mode, that is absolutely wrong they were and always have been the WORST unit for the game mode, they made this balance decision purely to benefit Skirmish mode players that were complaining about how op Kick+Javelin was and that throwables are too strong in 1 on 1 battle modes like skirmish, so they reduced the units ammo stack and made it so you can't quickly toss a javelin accurately to appease them. Making combat balance decisions based on 1 on 1 combat for a game that is designed to focus around large scale battles is absolutely baffling to me and it needs to stop. Separate the balances already, because if I have to read one more post about Archers being too strong i'm going to absolutely lose it.

The ammo of units needs to be reduced in cpt as well. Archers shouldnt be able to shoot 30 minutes straight (horse archers included). They can just double the archer unit size to give them more burst will at least fix some of the shock inf issues.

Cpt got some other issues like too low unit hp, too many units with spears etc.

 

[Ling*]

I was talking about cpt mode having shields wont guarantee the units to not get hit in the feet.


The ammo of units needs to be reduced in cpt as well. Archers shouldnt be able to shoot 30 minutes straight (horse archers included). They can just double the archer unit size to give them more burst will at least fix some of the shock inf issues.

Cpt got some other issues like too low unit hp, too many units with spears etc.

1. Ai won't ever hit you in the feet unless you have a shield the size of a tic-tac.
2. The ammo of units does NOT need to be reduced in captain mode, it was never an issue before, it isn't an issue now, it will never be an issue.
Captain mode had an Archer<Shield<Shock type balance before, it now has a Shock-Shock-Shock balance.

 

[sammytobe]

Horse archers were never op, I could take out a whole unit by myself with a single horse. Horse archers were only op after 1.5.3 until now with the latest patch.

 

[Greedalicious]

Horse archers were never op, I could take out a whole unit by myself with a single horse. Horse archers were only op after 1.5.3 until now with the latest patch.

I assume you mean AI horse archers, otherwise I really hope to see you in future tournaments as a 1 man team.

 

[sammytobe]

I assume you mean AI horse archers, otherwise I really hope to see you in future tournaments as a 1 man team.

Captains mode. Horse archers have always been weak.

 

[Greedalicious]

Captains mode. Horse archers have always been weak.

Because the AI is poor, not because the class is weak. Balancing classes based on captains mode is a bad idea, as multiplayer is mainly a PvP game, not PvE. The game needs to separate modes and balance accordingly. 2 handers, horse archers, archery, cavalry, were all massively overpowered in PvP, which is why they were nerfed.