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Throwing Meta is Ruining the Game
- Thread starter Jufasto
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The shield rising is slow.
The shield won't take effect until it's raised.
And the cover range... is very small when it hasn't raised...
Inf in this game has no flow experience. Your flow can be easily broken by ... various things... and you can't control that. you can just pray
The shield won't take effect until it's raised.
And the cover range... is very small when it hasn't raised...
Inf in this game has no flow experience. Your flow can be easily broken by ... various things... and you can't control that. you can just pray
this +1
The problem is (at least) threefold:
1) Shield coverage is still garbage and even worse when using directional shield blocking. It's incredibly easy to hit around shields both with range and melee, and the character is slow to turn when blocking (ironic considering there is no turncap when attacking). Solution: make shield blocking dynamic and increase the forcefield vs ranged.
2) Extra lives and multiple objectives benefit ranged and cheap classes dramatically. Having free dmg in your hand, a medieval nuke (throwing spear/pilum), and 2 lives in your pocket will always have huge utility. Devs also need to stop seeing classes as countering single other classes, it's not how the game works on a fundamental level. Every class is going to ultimately focus heavy inf because those are the guys out in front and the most vulnerable. Tweaking some dmg numbers here and there won't fix this. Not much solution to this until a single life game mode is out.
3) The base mechanics of the game encourage kiting. There is: no movement penalty for getting hit, no turncap which allows you to keep attacking and 180ing, combat speed is very close to top movement speed which means you can never truly "lock" people in melee, and large movement disparities. Right now skirmishers and light units can easily outpace inf, and so can archers usually despite having less movement speed. Again, simply demanding tweaks to movement speed isn't enough here - the base combat mechanics need tweaked.
I've been broadly enjoying the competitive side of this game in the past month but some of these issues are glaring and have been around for 1 year+. You have made throwing weapons very accurate and the if you look at each of the above issues, each are a direct nerf to melee. There must be some love shown to melee mechanics, NOT just stat tweaks.
1) Shield coverage is still garbage and even worse when using directional shield blocking. It's incredibly easy to hit around shields both with range and melee, and the character is slow to turn when blocking (ironic considering there is no turncap when attacking). Solution: make shield blocking dynamic and increase the forcefield vs ranged.
2) Extra lives and multiple objectives benefit ranged and cheap classes dramatically. Having free dmg in your hand, a medieval nuke (throwing spear/pilum), and 2 lives in your pocket will always have huge utility. Devs also need to stop seeing classes as countering single other classes, it's not how the game works on a fundamental level. Every class is going to ultimately focus heavy inf because those are the guys out in front and the most vulnerable. Tweaking some dmg numbers here and there won't fix this. Not much solution to this until a single life game mode is out.
3) The base mechanics of the game encourage kiting. There is: no movement penalty for getting hit, no turncap which allows you to keep attacking and 180ing, combat speed is very close to top movement speed which means you can never truly "lock" people in melee, and large movement disparities. Right now skirmishers and light units can easily outpace inf, and so can archers usually despite having less movement speed. Again, simply demanding tweaks to movement speed isn't enough here - the base combat mechanics need tweaked.
I've been broadly enjoying the competitive side of this game in the past month but some of these issues are glaring and have been around for 1 year+. You have made throwing weapons very accurate and the if you look at each of the above issues, each are a direct nerf to melee. There must be some love shown to melee mechanics, NOT just stat tweaks.
The throwing spears/pilum should be removed in my opinion.They are 1 shotting in leg,dismounting cavalry with 1 hit,doesn't let cavalries go into fight since someone hold this throwing spear and wait for the cavalry.There should be more infantry fights (melee).Buff the heavy infantry and remove the throwing spears.
rn skirmishers and pila peasants are doing their business, dismounting cav and chasing archers.
The problem is that heavy inf being useless and garbage
It's a good thing that skirmishers all have 15 damage in melee cause that's their only downside besides low armour, but heavy have 30-40 swing dmg on average with glancing blows being common and their movement speed is still not that good.
In my opinion what they should do, is to make heavys killing machines in melee. Make their and only their spears great against cav, increase their ms, increase their attack damage to be 70-80 against unarmored, slightly increase their attack speed. Make their armour to be real armour and not that joke as it is now. Rn it doesn't matter if you are the most armored unit in a game or 80g peasant, you still take 120 lance damage with one simple headshot attack with good relative ms bonus. Also their shields should cover them better against ranged
At least that's what comes in mind when I hear heavy infantry, they should be the best class in melee combat
The problem is that heavy inf being useless and garbage
It's a good thing that skirmishers all have 15 damage in melee cause that's their only downside besides low armour, but heavy have 30-40 swing dmg on average with glancing blows being common and their movement speed is still not that good.
In my opinion what they should do, is to make heavys killing machines in melee. Make their and only their spears great against cav, increase their ms, increase their attack damage to be 70-80 against unarmored, slightly increase their attack speed. Make their armour to be real armour and not that joke as it is now. Rn it doesn't matter if you are the most armored unit in a game or 80g peasant, you still take 120 lance damage with one simple headshot attack with good relative ms bonus. Also their shields should cover them better against ranged
At least that's what comes in mind when I hear heavy infantry, they should be the best class in melee combat
Skirmisher's damage in melee doesn't matter anything.They can run away from other infantries because of their speed,they can dodge cavalry with their speed.If their stock ends they will take the throwings from ground and throw it again and again..Relative hit won't work on skirmishers,its way too risky to hit them with high speed as cavalry(Skirmishers especially wants cavalries to charge them and dismount them with throwing spears,since cavalries has high speed).They cost for 100-110 gold,if you kill them once they can dismount you in second/third respawn with throwing spear.Skirmishers have 3 spawns.All of those are problematic.
Cav counter should be spears/jareeds/javelins,not throwing spears.Spears should rear cavalries easier and spears shouldn't softhit on the horses.That's it.For example battania vs empire,3 spawns 4 lives on each side makes 24 throwing spears.Everytime i look to infantry fights everyone is throwing pilums/throwing spears to eachother like wtf?
I wouldn't say that's too annoying in melee, you can always block throwings if you have a shield. It is problematic if, for example, you are shooting and skirmisher runs at you with 6 jareeds, there's almost nothing you can do, but skirmishers should be able to hunt down archs and I think it's balanced.
The real problem is that they not only have throwings, but also a great speed, allowing them to kite you the whole round, pick up throwings and throw again. This is real cancer when you play inf and you can't hit an enemy once cause he's always running away
Revverie
Ohh what do we have here a new meta ruining the game just like in every patch, maybe the game sucks and it's boring and its always going to have a meta, but hey don't go yet it's still in development blah blah
Aprikosenmann
Knight
Saying that throwing ruins melee is garbage. A brigand deals like 20dmg to enemy inf with throwing per life on average. Heavy inf wins against skirmishers isolated.
The main problem is that heavy inf is absolut garbage against archers and cav.
And throwing spear should oneshot horses on perfekt speed bonus with headshot. If the cav press SS and turn away you can only deal 45% of horse HP as damage which results into 3 throwing spears needed for dismount.
The main problem is that heavy inf is absolut garbage against archers and cav.
And throwing spear should oneshot horses on perfekt speed bonus with headshot. If the cav press SS and turn away you can only deal 45% of horse HP as damage which results into 3 throwing spears needed for dismount.
+1 Since ever.
I was eager to try it out on the Mister out of time master server. ?
So theoretically why would I choose the heavy inf instead of 3 lives with one bang throwing spears? Because even if you do manage to win against the skirmisher you still gotta play against him 2 more lives. My experience so far is that skirmishers are not bad at all in melee, with axes or maces they 2-3 hit heavily armored targets.
What lol, so the many teams running 3-4 skirmishers all go 0 kills 0-1 assists vs inf?
Having Skirmishers choose between a big one or 4 normal ones would already change a lot, its just too much if they have both. I dont see the need of removing them all together. Compare this to crossbows or longbows, they all should go for good as well then.
