Throwing Meta is Ruining the Game

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Its so weird because there was a patch not long ago that acknowledged that the throwing spears were overly strong and removed them from a couple classes. Now a month or so later and they are back.

Its like there are multiple people within the balancing team fighting each other over control of the balance. They take turns balancing the game every other patch, so we just go in circles flipping between the two design philosophys. Either that or the people at Taleworlds just pay absolutely no attention to the changes they have made and have no plan for what they want the meta to look like. They listen to the community very intently for bursts at a time and then spend the next few smaller patches reverting the changes they made in the large, "good" patch. Eventually we are just back to the meta we tried so hard to get away from

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

The problem is (at least) threefold:

1) Shield coverage is still garbage and even worse when using directional shield blocking. It's incredibly easy to hit around shields both with range and melee, and the character is slow to turn when blocking (ironic considering there is no turncap when attacking). Solution: make shield blocking dynamic and increase the forcefield vs ranged.

2) Extra lives and multiple objectives benefit ranged and cheap classes dramatically. Having free dmg in your hand, a medieval nuke (throwing spear/pilum), and 2 lives in your pocket will always have huge utility. Devs also need to stop seeing classes as countering single other classes, it's not how the game works on a fundamental level. Every class is going to ultimately focus heavy inf because those are the guys out in front and the most vulnerable. Tweaking some dmg numbers here and there won't fix this. Not much solution to this until a single life game mode is out.

3) The base mechanics of the game encourage kiting. There is: no movement penalty for getting hit, no turncap which allows you to keep attacking and 180ing, combat speed is very close to top movement speed which means you can never truly "lock" people in melee, and large movement disparities. Right now skirmishers and light units can easily outpace inf, and so can archers usually despite having less movement speed. Again, simply demanding tweaks to movement speed isn't enough here - the base combat mechanics need tweaked.

I've been broadly enjoying the competitive side of this game in the past month but some of these issues are glaring and have been around for 1 year+. You have made throwing weapons very accurate and the if you look at each of the above issues, each are a direct nerf to melee. There must be some love shown to melee mechanics, NOT just stat tweaks.

 

[hoonii]

Am I the only one who thinks we shouldn't be able to pick javs on corpses or shields?

Pilum, in reality, is designed not to be picked up again lol, it gets stuck inside the body/the tip bends if it doesn't kill so it's useless. To Roman thinking it was very bad to give your enemy such a good ranged weapon which completely makes sense.

Spoiler: Pilum

 

[Mushbeast]

I think in general we should be able to pick javelins back up, but I can agree with it not being the case for pilum, though they would have to deal considerable damage to shields too in that case. It's pretty silly that the pilum can be used in melee too, and it's not bad for a spear beside it's short range.

 

[Zarthas]

Pilum, in reality, is designed not to be picked up again lol, it gets stuck inside the body/the tip bends if it doesn't kill so it's useless. To Roman thinking it was very bad to give your enemy such a good ranged weapon which completely makes sense.

Spoiler: Pilum

It is my understanding that the later you go in history, the less likely the Pilum was to have the "bendy bit" feature. The Pilum of the dark ages was not even strictly a throwing weapon, since the term started to get used by people who didn't speak Latin, and were just kind of emulating the form rather than making strictly Imperial Marian-style pila.
All that being said though, it would be more interesting and fun to have the Bendy Pila in game that deals bonus damage to shields and can't be thrown again. Would solve some of the problems with throwing OP complaints if it was a truly one-shot weapon. Then if we could give Legions back their pilum, they could be Anti-heavy/Anti-Cavalry heavy infantry, which kind of fits with how they operated.
Really though, I don't think any meaningful progress can be made on this issue for anyone until Skirmish and Captain perks split.

 

[Jesus__is__Lord]

throwing spears/pila are not a bad idea, restricting equipment selection and excluding players from using a very good weapon is bad,

please equalize all class stats,
one speed for all classes,
no penalties for using cav as a different class, (horse being slower then cavalry class horse)
no penalties for using a range weapon as a different class (not sure if its in there)

please let players choose any equipment they want there shouldnt be a restriction on weapon, armor or mount selection, outside what you can afford (gold system of warband)

your speed should only be affected by the equipment you have,
so everyone can use every weapon, mount and fight in every kind of situation equally

this will encourage more people to use range weapons and mounts if there isn't a movement speed penalty that makes foot combat impractical,

please make heavy armor realistically deflect arrows,
this will help debuff archers who i believe are very overpowered

quivers should carry the same movement penalties that shields have ( a little more to prevent kiting)
it is unrealistic for a person to be able to sprint with a quiver full of arrows, movement penalties should be attached to the quiver item equipment rather then the archer class itself

please reduce cavalry health,
cavalry shouldnt be tanks, i know you are reducing their health now so i thank you for that change but please decrease more

add a horse flinch that affects the rider's melee swing,
a horse shouldnt be stable if hit with a weapon or arrow, it should flinch therefore affecting the riders ability to attack in the moment, like infantry on foot, being hit should interrupt their swing

please equalize players heights,
a player shouldnt be able to kick/melee further than any other player

thank you for reading

 

[Sikkimoto]

Spears, especially pilas, are supposed to do massive damage to shields before anything else.

Throwing spears were never used vs charging horses - it is supposed to be useless!

It is needed to just tune down precision of everything ranged an make it less reliable for A-class tryhard's 360 double backflip noscope.

Just make horses immortal, they are nearly unvunerable anyway. And maybe attach little machine guns to horse's heads so you can wipe out Infantry at a higher distance.

 

[soul_jak]

Throwing spears or pilas should break after tossed maybe ?

 

[Moth_Queen]

Just make horses immortal, they are nearly unvunerable anyway. And maybe attach little machine guns to horse's heads so you can wipe out Infantry at a higher distance.

They need to make 2H anti-horse: it was litterally the case IRL (and in Warband too).

They are moving away from realism in search of balance.

 

[hoonii]

They need to make 2H anti-horse: it was litterally the case IRL (and in Warband too).

They are moving away from realism in search of balance.

You really don't think 2h are not anti-cav?
Excuse me and 100 damage done with each swing.

 

[Yukmouth++]

They need to make 2H anti-horse: it was litterally the case IRL (and in Warband too).

They are moving away from realism in search of balance.

Every god damn weapons needs to work vs a horse. Too many weapons just bounce on armored horses. Its just so damn hard to land a 1h sword hit on a horse while getting speared in the face by the rider, it should pay off. I've said it countless time, but if a cavalry player manages to receive a 1h weapon hit on his horse, he missplayed REAL hard and should be punished just like when he gets hit with any weapons. Its just ridiculous that the only way to make infantry classes competitive is to turn the game into a first person shooter with javelins flying everywhere. Adding more throwings is basicly a way to balance Inf vs Cav, but it makes Inf vs Inf all the more brutaly toxic. Throwing meta is a result of cavalry being way too overpowered.

 

[Sikkimoto]

You really don't think 2h are not anti-cav?
Excuse me and 100 damage done with each swing.

Meaning killing a horse requires 3 hits. With the best damage dealing melee weapons ingame. And the rider of that same horse you just delievered 100 damage to isnt even stunned, meaning he can land a free stab on your face every time you try to kill his horse. Rn every 2H class without pike is basically a freekill for cavalry.

 

[Yukmouth++]

To deliver 100 damage to a horse you need to swing it right in the face, which means you are facing the Cavalry headfirst against his long ass lance. If the Cav manages to be out-ranged by your 2h weapon vs his lance, he missplayed so hard that in fact his horse should've received 300 dmg lol.

From what i remember in Warband, when you faced a Cav 1v1 face to face, 2h vs his spear, and managed to make a side jump and land your hit = the cav player was toasted.

 

[hoonii]

Meaning killing a horse requires 3 hits. With the best damage dealing melee weapons ingame. And the rider of that same horse you just delievered 100 damage to isnt even stunned, meaning he can land a free stab on your face every time you try to kill his horse. Rn every 2H class without pike is basically a freekill for cavalry.

To deliver 100 damage to a horse you need to swing it right in the face, which means you are facing the Cavalry headfirst against his long ass lance. If the Cav manages to be out-ranged by your 2h weapon vs his lance, he missplayed so hard that in fact his horse should've received 300 dmg lol.

From what i remember in Warband, when you faced a Cav 1v1 face to face, 2h vs his spear, and managed to make a side jump and land your hit = the cav player was toasted.

These are all TDM/noob excuses lol ngl.
Unless you get bumphit(which is easy to dodge when 1v1) 2h will easily kill cav, even destroy light cav because of the lack of armor.
It's not like you spam left click and hope to kill the horse before the rider kills you lol; you have to block, dodge and counter attack. If the rider misses his stab he's ****ed.
Are you sure it isn't just that you guys like complaining about cav?

 

[Yukmouth++]

These are all TDM/noob excuses lol ngl.
Unless you get bumphit(which is easy to dodge when 1v1) 2h will easily kill cav, even destroy light cav because of the lack of armor.
It's not like you spam left click and hope to kill the horse before the rider kills you lol; you have to block, dodge and counter attack. If the rider misses his stab he's ****ed.
Are you sure it isn't just that you guys like complaining about cav?

How the fk can you block dodge and counter attack a cav that's charging you ? This makes 0 sense you cant do all of those things in one charge. Are you talking about fighting a Cavalry that is standing still next to you or something ? Then yeah, 2h will wipe the floor with him...

 

[Sikkimoto]

These are all TDM/noob excuses lol ngl.
Unless you get bumphit(which is easy to dodge when 1v1) 2h will easily kill cav, even destroy light cav because of the lack of armor.
It's not like you spam left click and hope to kill the horse before the rider kills you lol; you have to block, dodge and counter attack. If the rider misses his stab he's ****ed.
Are you sure it isn't just that you guys like complaining about cav?

Thanks for the laugh. I'd say lets go on a server, you pick Bezerk and i ride over you 20 times with any lancer. Sadly we dont have custom servers.

 

[hoonii]

Have you ever thought that cav has the advantage of speed??? And they have the advantage when they're charging which is their strong suit lol??
And, wait for it, that you can sidestep?????
You guys act like whatever you do is %100 fine and without any flaws and whatever the cav does he shouldn't be able to kill you lmao. Please don't forget that you can make mistakes like everyone and when you do you will be punished for it.
You can kill cav that is charging at you one hit AND damage the rider at the same time with 2 handed, not mentioning menav and voulge are good at rearing cav.

 

[method man]

Have you ever thought that cav has the advantage of speed??? And they have the advantage when they're charging which is their strong suit lol??
And, wait for it, that you can sidestep?????
You guys act like whatever you do is %100 fine and without any flaws and whatever the cav does he shouldn't be able to kill you lmao. Please don't forget that you can make mistakes like everyone and when you do you will be punished for it.
You can kill cav that is charging at you one hit AND damage the rider at the same time with 2 handed, not mentioning menav and voulge are good at rearing cav.

Using italics doesn't make your argument seem more cogent. In fact, it signals that your argument is ****. It is a crutch. Have you considered that people have a problem with cav that is more nuanced than them wanting it to be irrelevant?

 

[hoonii]

Using italics doesn't make your argument seem more cogent. Have you considered that people have a problem with cav that is more nuanced than them wanting it to be irrelevant?

maybe they should learn how to counter it instead of constantly *****ing about it in the forums
also wasn't this thread about throwings? why are people derailing it?

 

[Sikkimoto]

Sidesteps. Very witty. No charging horseman will expect that genius move.

You must have played at least half an hour of single player to dive into these secret game mechanics?