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Discussion about cavalry balance and knock downs
- Thread starter NIN3
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Honestly, bumps on heavy cavalry feel really good on captain now. You can actually run your units through a small bunch of infantry without them getting stuck and dying immediately against peasants or something. Sure, after the first bump the damage numbers drastically drop, but that's not a problem. Also, now it's more likely that you risk getting killed from actually being stabbed and slashed when going THROUGH the enemy formation, instead of just getting stuck in it and then being stabbed to death. I think for captain mode the changes were just about perfect.
hey @Firunien, hello everyone,
I find the proposed changes interesting but the riders would not really play the same game after such changes and that can be sad. I think we should first see if we can improve the infantry
I posted some of my ideas on a dedicated topic here:
I find the proposed changes interesting but the riders would not really play the same game after such changes and that can be sad. I think we should first see if we can improve the infantry
I posted some of my ideas on a dedicated topic here:
Hello everyone,
It's an interesting topic and I'd just like to post my opinion on it after reading all of this
I think the cavalry is really a lovely class to play with whether it's in a duel or on the field. Clearly, it is the unit I think the most worked unit of the game and its domination does not surprise me so much since the SP and MP stats are linked, it is thus logical that a cavalry unit is stronger than an infantry unit in SP. it would be necessary to separate the modules but this is another story, we will surely come there with the mods
more simply, I think we can improve the quality of play of the infantry by some news updates:
1-very short lances that cause a lot of damage. A bit like the Alwpike on Warband
the fact that they are short does not make them playable by riders and the fact that they do a lot of damage will deter a rider from entering at full speed in the groupefight
2-Faster weapon switch & and a faster turnaround time
it allows for a faster game, with the possibility of turning around and making quick and surprising hits
These are just two improvements that would be really interesting. They are options that you can find on Warband and that I found interesting for a better infantry game. Don't hesitate to tell me what you think about them. I think that this can be a plus to the other requests made by the community without changing the rest of the game too much
goddamn you gotta share your reaction image/gif archive with me
ofc I didn't mean to give any orders or anything, just trying to say it would be an overkill and unnecessary nerf
Sound cues needs improvement to prevent surprise backstabs.
Horses have too Much HP and Weapons Bounce on them too much
Horses have too Much HP and Weapons Bounce on them too much
I agree on this. There is no need to dismantle cav, the direct consequence would be to dismantle archers next.goddamn you gotta share your reaction image/gif archive with me
ofc I didn't mean to give any orders or anything, just trying to say it would be an overkill and unnecessary nerf
Let's just improve infantry first.
There is blatant need to directly nerf cav. Beyond returning bazookas - sorry, pila - to inf, there is little improvements to be made to them beyond tweaking spears and shields more.
In my opinion there's also a blatant need to nerf archers, which has so far not been done either. So before we dismantle classes completely we should maybe take the other direction and actually improve infantry vs cavalry.
Do any stats support that? From what I see cav are consistently dominant, whilst archers are sometimes up at the top but sometimes low down or assists only - which is kind of where they should be.
Which sounds like the reverse is needed - improve inf vs archers with shield coverage buffs and maybe tweak the speed, but nerf cav.
Which sounds like the reverse is needed - improve inf vs archers with shield coverage buffs and maybe tweak the speed, but nerf cav.
With the latest patch spears are much more stronger against cav and deals tons of damage now. I suggest removing 2 handed weapons from cav(menav and glaive) and reduce the lance damage a bit and reduce heavy horse armor by 10 maybe.
Also reduce the time you stay on the ground after getting heavy bumped and everything is gucci.
Also reduce the time you stay on the ground after getting heavy bumped and everything is gucci.
archers are still able to shoot reasonably accurately after drawing and shooting under a second with full damage. please for the love of god nerf this(reduce the damage when done so)
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Now archers have a choice between fast recurve bow that deal 22 damage and strong longbows that can deal up to 45 body damage per shot. Longbow are way too slow, they are unplayable against cav in close range, you can't release a shot fast enough until the rider gets too close, whilst these shortbows are only good against cav, cause ms damage bonus is leveling bow's low base damage, but these bows are bad against inf, you usually need 5 body shots to kill your enemy, sometimes you can't kill heavy inf with 2 headshots. If the rider knows how to play against an archer, you can't do much against him even with that fast bow, bumps are just too consistent, horse is too maneuverable and the bow is not fast enough.
Yes with recurve bow you can release a shot before bowstring is fully taut, but your spread will be half screen wide and that bow only deals 22dmg on average, if you are dying to much to it just start playing around relative movement speed
I know a cav would kill a single archer in 1v1 easily but when there are 2 or more shooting at you it's really bad. I have no problems with longbows and heavy recurve bows and such. I know the point of having a fast bow is "shooting faster" but it feels like the bow string has no stress at all and it's just too soft or something that you can draw it so quickly, it does less damage, true but having a machine gun like bow doesn't make sense to me. IMO there should be either a damage or accuracy penalty for just left clicking and not actually holding your aim.
Huh? I think only the xbow needs nerfing. Archers are pretty much only good if you play 2-2-2 nowadays, which cav have trouble engaging cause of the crossfire. Pewpewing is only a major part at the start of the round shooting under or above shields. If an archer is beeing pushed hes useless, runs and hides cause it’s the only thing he can do except for khuzait archers.
Steelo
Nerf Cav spear damage %30 nerf bump %10 nerf knock down %15 done.
what a clever idea my friend. Wow.
Hey!
Just to jump in here. It's often suggested that we should simply decrease “cavalry damage” and nerf cav by that. Obviously it's part of the discussion but doing that by itself, is ineffective and doesnt make much sense.
There would be 3 ways to “simply reduce damage” for cav:
1. We reduce the damage of 2h polearm thrusts (spears, lances and so on)
This would not only nerf cav, but also nerf the spears countering them. So it would have a mirrored effect and might even hit infantry harder than the cav.
2. We reduce the bonus damage from relative speed
Similar story. The reason why inf is so ineffective at close range is that they rely (just like cav) on the speed bonus. Also that's a global value. Wiggling with that would effect every melee encounter in the game.
3. We only reduce the damage of the cav spears and lances
Also this wont really work. First of all cav shares the long spears with the heavy inf. Thats kind of a problem and we will maybe split them in the future but even if we do, inf can always drop spears to cav. Equipment sharing limits us greatly there. Reducing spear lengths or damage will only really have a negative impact.
Still we will obviously do some adjustments to this. I am just clarifying why this can't be the main screw to turn for cavalry balance.
Also, I know with this wide disucssion and how the game works, you kinda need to touch upon many other aspects aswell, but lets try to stay on topic.
Just to jump in here. It's often suggested that we should simply decrease “cavalry damage” and nerf cav by that. Obviously it's part of the discussion but doing that by itself, is ineffective and doesnt make much sense.
There would be 3 ways to “simply reduce damage” for cav:
1. We reduce the damage of 2h polearm thrusts (spears, lances and so on)
This would not only nerf cav, but also nerf the spears countering them. So it would have a mirrored effect and might even hit infantry harder than the cav.
2. We reduce the bonus damage from relative speed
Similar story. The reason why inf is so ineffective at close range is that they rely (just like cav) on the speed bonus. Also that's a global value. Wiggling with that would effect every melee encounter in the game.
3. We only reduce the damage of the cav spears and lances
Also this wont really work. First of all cav shares the long spears with the heavy inf. Thats kind of a problem and we will maybe split them in the future but even if we do, inf can always drop spears to cav. Equipment sharing limits us greatly there. Reducing spear lengths or damage will only really have a negative impact.
Still we will obviously do some adjustments to this. I am just clarifying why this can't be the main screw to turn for cavalry balance.
Also, I know with this wide disucssion and how the game works, you kinda need to touch upon many other aspects aswell, but lets try to stay on topic.
Thanks for this, it's always helpful to know what can work and can't before we go too deep down the rabbithole. Isn't part of the benefit of the class system though that things like weapons can be freely balanced per class? e.g can't we just say the cav no longer has the same spear as the inf, but it's its own cav spear weapon which has lower base damage?
Some other questions:
-are combat animations in scope for changes so we can make suggestions for that?
-are extra mechanics in scope e.g. stunning thrusting polearms when their attack is blocked?
I would like to refer you to my post in a different thread where I hope you may find some useful suggestions: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/cavalry-is-overpowered.437976/#post-9624929
Primarily, I believe the most urgent changes are:
- Small reduction to the armour value of all horses, particularly heavy horses.
- Reduce the knockdown time of a full bump.
- Reduce the bonus damage from relative speed.
I'd like to explain each one in turn:
1) Reducing the armour value of all horses, primarily affecting heavy horses, would hopefully reduce some of the frustration that infantry feel when hitting armoured horses at close range. Currently, such attacks feel like they are glancing off and do basically nothing to deter the cavalry from hanging around in close range. Reducing the armour value, instead of the HP, guarantees that the impact is most felt on heavy horses and not the comparatively easy to kill light horses.
2) The full knockdown time is far too long and has been since alpha. If you get fully knocked down you can be hit multiple times by enemies and have no way to defend yourself. Full knockdowns are a good mechanic but the time is significantly too long at the moment. In fact, as a cavalry, you can full knockdown someone and quick-stop with the double-tap mechanic, turn, and hit the downed enemy before they manage to stand up. It is not only a support mechanic but one which cavalry can use to guarantee damage at the moment as well. Reducing the full knockdown time would also make infantry feel more empowered, as they would not feel like they're being knocked down for significant periods of time.
3) In theory, reducing the bonus damage from relative speed impacts infantry, cavalry and archers all the same, but in practice this is not the case. Cavalry far more frequently land hits at high speed than infantry, because cavalry are often attacking from behind or the side and can quickly pass-by a fight. Infantry, on the other hand, often have to wait until cavalry have slowed down and are actively supporting the fight at close range until they can deal damage to the horse. Yes, there are occasions where infantry land hits on horses which are going at full speed, primarily with a spear, but against skilled cavalry you are much less likely to be hitting them whilst they are going quickly. For this reason, in practice a reduction to the speed bonus would affect cavalry more, even if that is not the case in theory. Additionally, this would presumably reduce the damage of ranged attacks against moving targets as well, which would serve the additional purpose of a minor nerf to javelins and to archer/xbow damage against horses, something which may be needed if the armour of the horses is slightly reduced.
I believe that these 3 changes are the most important and would go a long way to balancing cavalry, but I have other suggestions which are in the link I provided. Those other suggestions are:
- Slightly increase the time it takes cavalry to stand up after getting dismounted and remove their ability to block as they do so.
- Slightly increase the time before horses can move after being reared.
- Reduce how easily horses push people around, making it more likely for risky cav players to get "trapped" in an engagement.
- Make infantry more likely to "cleave" through the horse and hit both the rider and the horse in one attack. This would buff infantry melee weapons against cavalry as they would be capable of dealing damage to the rider more easily.
I didn't want to say we are not touching it. We are thinking about making inf and cav spears different, I just dont think it's effective by itself, since you can always share equipment in your team. It will help casual play of course though and there is always a downside when switching equipment.
Btw just so it doesn't come across wrong, I am a big fan of equipment sharing (as long as its not over done). It's a great way for teams to widen up their strategies and makes people think differently about some perks!
Doing animation changes is a bit out of scope right now. We are gonna ask for some new animations from the Animation team soon, but we will need to find other ways to balance for the short term.
Sure cav benefits greatly from speed bonus. But as i said, changing it (no matter how we increase inf spear damages) is gonna make rearing horses harder. Now its hard to weight less cav damage vs harder horse rears. But I don't think we need trade offs to balance cav right now, but clear nerfs.
Also this mechanic as it is implemented literally affects everything. We would need to rebalance all weapons in the game since the dps in inf vs inf fights would also be reduced, bringing back a lot of bouncing and so on.
We will have a talk on monday about more concrete measures. But since its not decided I can't give you a clear rundown of the next balance changes. But your suggestions overall go into a similar direction as our thoughts.
