Looters vs Spearmen

[LavaLampMaster]

This is probably an overly simplistic solution, but a lot of weapons have two use modes that you can switch with the x key, mostly for using throwing weapons as either melee or thrown weapons. Could a switch for spears between the current "normal" mode and maybe a higher up grip that sacrifices reach for speed in close combat? Combined with the polearm push perk, that could be a fun technique that the AI could also use: short range stab-push, switch to long range grip, harder stab. Would also make spearmen more effective by allowing them to slow down and control enemy infantry advances, make infantry spear length matter, and generally make unit cohesion more important.

 

[Maximum997]

This is probably an overly simplistic solution, but a lot of weapons have two use modes that you can switch with the x key, mostly for using throwing weapons as either melee or thrown weapons. Could a switch for spears between the current "normal" mode and maybe a higher up grip that sacrifices reach for speed in close combat?

Yep. We need it 100%
Or X to use underarm.

 

[Aggrobiscuit]

I'm doing a spear and shield playthrough and I'm really enjoying it. In the hands of the player, it's a powerful defensive weapon, but AI uses the spear badly. The AI has no concept of proper spacing when trying to attack with a spear. They have no options when anyone gets in their face, whereas the player has options like shield bash and kick to create space. Giving those tools to the AI opens up a whole other can of worms, though.

The main problem for players I think is the slow thrust speed rather than the damage. Spear attacks are hard to aim because of the delay, easy to see coming and easy to parry because of the lack of attack choices. Fixing thrust speed would help all those problems. The damage seems fine to me, at low skill I'm jabbing people in the head for 150 damage (on foot) with a regular Menavlion.

 

[Davic]

In my experience, the AI never tries to use spears against anything but cavalry anyways and outside the arena I don't think any unit only has a spear. Even if they have their spears ready after being charged by cavalry, they'll quickly switch to their primary weapons when they meet enemy infantry. This behavior indicates that Taleworlds never intended for spears to be a strong weapon versus infantry, which isn't that surprising if you've played Warband.

Also, the multiplayer hate is unwarranted. The nerfs to spears mostly had to do with their overtuned speed and damage compared to other melee weapons. The AI would still have been terrible at using them and would still switch to their primary against non-cavalry even without the nerfs. I think most MP players would also prefer SP and MP combat become unlinked, especially if it were to mean they'll actually listen to suggestions more. If you're upset about spears, don't blame MP players for wanting MP to not be a spear spamfest, blame TW for their initial design.

 

[Mardochaios]

I think just to be a bit more rigorous, it would be worth producing more results so you can be sure the data(what we're seeing) is conclusive and not just a fluke of some sort/result of luck. Not to say that it's not already obvious, but who knows? A lot of the times I find that the length of the formation and how surrounded the defending formation is usually results in a steady victory, so the fact they got surrounded so quickly really didn't work in their favour here, specifically.

But hell yeah, I've been wanting to do this kind of thing myself but couldn't be bothered to get the console working, or whatever to produce my desired conditions.

 

[9yearsago]

MP already gone this way and it affected SP badly.
TW had/have some dellusions about Bannerlord becoming new E-sport game. Spears being **** and horses charge being low damage is gift from MP beta. Thanks to some MP autists screeching on forum.

+1

 

[Ishtarin]

In my experience, the AI never tries to use spears against anything but cavalry anyways and outside the arena I don't think any unit only has a spear. Even if they have their spears ready after being charged by cavalry, they'll quickly switch to their primary weapons when they meet enemy infantry. This behavior indicates that Taleworlds never intended for spears to be a strong weapon versus infantry, which isn't that surprising if you've played Warband.

Also, the multiplayer hate is unwarranted. The nerfs to spears mostly had to do with their overtuned speed and damage compared to other melee weapons. The AI would still have been terrible at using them and would still switch to their primary against non-cavalry even without the nerfs. I think most MP players would also prefer SP and MP combat become unlinked, especially if it were to mean they'll actually listen to suggestions more. If you're upset about spears, don't blame MP players for wanting MP to not be a spear spamfest, blame TW for their initial design.

so now we have an axe/swinging polearm spamfest and that's alright, or a sword only spamfest and that would be alright too, anything but spears huh?

 

[Davic]

so now we have an axe/swinging polearm spamfest and that's alright, or a sword only spamfest and that would be alright too, anything but spears huh?

Ignoring that currently in MP no melee weapon is being significantly overused compared to everything else (at least not to the degree spears were) and spears still have utility as support and anti-cavalry, yes, with how Taleworlds designed spears in Bannerlord a spear spamfest would be much worse than pretty much every other melee weapon in the game. They're two-directional with long range, which led to infantry fights that were just players trying to poke at each other and made group-fighting and outnumbered fights chaotic and impossible.

 

[Aggrobiscuit]

I think just to be a bit more rigorous, it would be worth producing more results so you can be sure the data(what we're seeing) is conclusive and not just a fluke of some sort/result of luck. Not to say that it's not already obvious, but who knows? A lot of the times I find that the length of the formation and how surrounded the defending formation is usually results in a steady victory, so the fact they got surrounded so quickly really didn't work in their favour here, specifically.

This would happen again and again. The first problem is that spear AI doesn't back off when someone is in their face, meaning their spear attacks do perhaps 5 damage because they cannot thrust properly. The other problem is 1H AI, which wants to have his body pressed right up on yours while he beats your head in, and there's really no penalty for that other than the occasional haft strike. This results in 1H AI always beating spear AI.

Things wouldn't change much even if you gave both sides shields, if the arena is anything to go by. Spear AI always gets the short end of the stick, no pun intended.

 

[shades_o_grey]

The AI wants to be at knife-fighting range, even if their knife is on a 6 ft pole.

 

[geala]

I'm using the mods "Spear Rebalance" (close quarter version) and "Realistic Shield Usage" and cannot complain about the combo spear and shield. The AI is quite good with it, not as it should perhaps, but in the arena spear + shield NPCs can win (or lose) against any other weapons. My own weapon combo on the battlefield and at sieges always is (short) spear with good handling, 2x javelins and shield.

 

[Ishtarin]

Ignoring that currently in MP no melee weapon is being significantly overused compared to everything else (at least not to the degree spears were) and spears still have utility as support and anti-cavalry, yes, with how Taleworlds designed spears in Bannerlord a spear spamfest would be much worse than pretty much every other melee weapon in the game. They're two-directional with long range, which led to infantry fights that were just players trying to poke at each other and made group-fighting and outnumbered fights chaotic and impossible.

the current meta is just menavliatons swinging wildly without even bothering to block, I'd rather have a spear spamfest than this cancer

 

[Davic]

the current meta is just menavliatons swinging wildly without even bothering to block, I'd rather have a spear spamfest than this cancer

Not sure how a weapon only available to one faction can be spammed in all matches ? Shock troops in general are spammed in TDM (but certainly not in skirmish) but ultimately have a lot of weaknesses. The menavlion in particular is vulnerable to ranged and isn't a good 1v1 or 1vX weapon. Meanwhile the spear at it's strongest during the beta could be used with a shield to block melee and ranged easily, was just as good in 1v1 as any other weapon, was the best melee support weapon, did the best damage against armor excluding some 2H weapons, and was the primary defense for infantry against cavalry. Since the spear is a universal option across factions, many good players didn't even bother with any other melee weapons because spears were pretty much the best or second best in every category. If you didn't play during that period of the beta, don't assume that what you're experiencing now is worse than how spears were.