Looters vs Spearmen

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Any ideas? Probably just a 1.3 vs 1.2 thing?
I think that's the reason. 1.3 weapon mods usually don't work on 1.2 because taleworlds changed/renamed one of the weapon parameters between 1.2 and 1.3.

If your goal is just to compare spear and sword why not removing the shield ?
If the swordsmen had shields too they would be even stronger in comparison. I did a test with spear/shield since that was one of the most common combinations historically, but I can also do a test with just spears and no shield.
 
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One tricky thing about balancing is easily seen in melee cav.

I think the problem with SP melee cav is the AI is really really really stupid with it. If I could fine tune who my cavs attacks position a flank around properly have them put their shields up during the charge and then hit archerers in the bank or flank the line of enemies that blobed into my line of melee I would like cav a lot better.

It's weakness will be helped over the years as they find tune commands and AI performance more then it will be by actually modifying the unit.

Spears are a bit weirder, but if the dead spots from ally shields in melee were adjusted and the AI new how to stab their enemies in from behind their allies while everyone is holding a line when in a group.

Also if when out of a group the AI knew how move in and out with the trusts because of how it's damage is tied with movement it would be a bit better. When I get enough stamina to move I can always win an arena battle with a spear because the AI has no concept of how spears work mechanically.

Mechanically for the weapon itself maybe they could get a slightly less help from momentum pair with a slightly higher base damage, but not a drastic sweeping thing. The AI and battle commands will be the biggest deal though.
 
I don't get why spear damage should be more affected by momentum than any other weapon type. I've heard that a few times and it really puzzles me. If they gave spears bigger speed bonuses and then tried to compensate for it by reducing their base damage, then why not just remove the extra speed bonus and give them higher base damage?
 
I don't get why spear damage should be more affected by momentum than any other weapon type. I've heard that a few times and it really puzzles me. If they gave spears bigger speed bonuses and then tried to compensate for it by reducing their base damage, then why not just remove the extra speed bonus and give them higher base damage?
You would get more effect with momentum on a single small point versus a larger surface area having the impact displaced.
 
MP already gone this way and it affected SP badly.
TW had/have some dellusions about Bannerlord becoming new E-sport game. Spears being **** and horses charge being low damage is gift from MP beta. Thanks to some MP autists screeching on forum.
That can't be true
 
You would get more effect with momentum on a single small point versus a larger surface area having the impact displaced.
That doesn't justify a bigger speed bonus. You'd also get a bigger effect by slowly pressing the point into a surface vs. pressing the cutting edge of a blade into it.
 
That doesn't justify a bigger speed bonus. You'd also get a bigger effect by slowly pressing the point into a surface vs. pressing the cutting edge of a blade into it.
That is true. But the fact that spears are horribly implemented doesn't really dictate a need for higher base damage. The two thrusts the spears have (quick thrust to the head or a long slow lunging thrust) are the only methods of attack they have. You need at least a minimum of distance to achieve either without bonking on a shield every shot. With no spear walls, pike walls, schilstroms etc. a bonus to puncture damage with additional momentum is the best you could do to make them viable. The horses have no morale system to try and make them fearful of the sharp pointy thing in their face.
 
I don't get why spear damage should be more affected by momentum than any other weapon type. I've heard that a few times and it really puzzles me. If they gave spears bigger speed bonuses and then tried to compensate for it by reducing their base damage, then why not just remove the extra speed bonus and give them higher base damage?
It's not that spears have a higher bonus for speed than other weapons, it's that thrusts in general are more dependent on velocity and scale more with velocity than swings. These formula are used in calculating the damage of attacks and weapon stats:
C#:
        public static float CalculateStrikeMagnitudeForSwing(float swingSpeed, float impactPointAsPercent, float weaponWeight, float weaponLength, float weaponInertia, float weaponCoM, float extraLinearSpeed)
        {
            float num = weaponLength * impactPointAsPercent - weaponCoM;
            float num2 = swingSpeed * (0.5f + weaponCoM) + extraLinearSpeed;
            float num3 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num2 * num2;
            float num4 = 0.5f * weaponInertia * swingSpeed * swingSpeed;
            float num5 = num3 + num4;
            float num6 = (num2 + swingSpeed * num) / (1f / weaponWeight + num * num / weaponInertia);
            float num7 = num2 - num6 / weaponWeight;
            float num8 = swingSpeed - num6 * num / weaponInertia;
            float num9 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num7 * num7;
            float num10 = 0.5f * weaponInertia * num8 * num8;
            float num11 = num9 + num10;
            float num12 = num5 - num11;
            num11 *= 0.5f;
            float num13 = num12 + 0.5f;
            return 0.067f * num13;
        }

        // Token: 0x06000163 RID: 355 RVA: 0x000067F0 File Offset: 0x000049F0
        public static float CalculateStrikeMagnitudeForThrust(float thrustWeaponSpeed, float weaponWeight, float extraLinearSpeed, bool isThrown)
        {
            float num = thrustWeaponSpeed + extraLinearSpeed;
            if (!isThrown)
            {
                weaponWeight += 2.5f;
            }
            float num2 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num * num;
            return 0.125f * num2;
        }

Thrust damage is almost entirely from mass times velocity squared but swinging damage does not scale as high but also has less chance of doing 0 damage on a low velocity attack.
 
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people who use spears are just too afraid to fight in melee (change my mind) even for bots making spears op just imbalance the whole game, kinda destroys the wonky rock paper scissor format we got at the moment aswell.

My spear units dont really have problems stopping cav and taking them down. Thats the only thing they should be used for. Maybe they can introduce some nw gimmick
 
people who use spears are just too afraid to fight in melee (change my mind) even for bots making spears op just imbalance the whole game, kinda destroys the wonky rock paper scissor format we got at the moment aswell.

My spear units dont really have problems stopping cav and taking them down. Thats the only thing they should be used for. Maybe they can introduce some nw gimmick
They aren't afraid to fight in melee.....a spear is a melee weapon. They are smart enough to use range to its advantage. You can't stab me if you are already poked on the end of a my spear 6 ft away. The spear has been around for a long time. It served the purpose well. Keep you out of the range of danger while making the other person/animal dead.
 
It's not that spears have a higher bonus for speed than other weapons, it's that thrusts in general are more dependent on velocity and scale more with velocity than swings. These formula are used in calculating the damage of attacks and weapon stats:
C#:
        public static float CalculateStrikeMagnitudeForSwing(float swingSpeed, float impactPointAsPercent, float weaponWeight, float weaponLength, float weaponInertia, float weaponCoM, float extraLinearSpeed)
        {
            float num = weaponLength * impactPointAsPercent - weaponCoM;
            float num2 = swingSpeed * (0.5f + weaponCoM) + extraLinearSpeed;
            float num3 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num2 * num2;
            float num4 = 0.5f * weaponInertia * swingSpeed * swingSpeed;
            float num5 = num3 + num4;
            float num6 = (num2 + swingSpeed * num) / (1f / weaponWeight + num * num / weaponInertia);
            float num7 = num2 - num6 / weaponWeight;
            float num8 = swingSpeed - num6 * num / weaponInertia;
            float num9 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num7 * num7;
            float num10 = 0.5f * weaponInertia * num8 * num8;
            float num11 = num9 + num10;
            float num12 = num5 - num11;
            num11 *= 0.5f;
            float num13 = num12 + 0.5f;
            return 0.067f * num13;
        }

        // Token: 0x06000163 RID: 355 RVA: 0x000067F0 File Offset: 0x000049F0
        public static float CalculateStrikeMagnitudeForThrust(float thrustWeaponSpeed, float weaponWeight, float extraLinearSpeed, bool isThrown)
        {
            float num = thrustWeaponSpeed + extraLinearSpeed;
            if (!isThrown)
            {
                weaponWeight += 2.5f;
            }
            float num2 = 0.5f * weaponWeight * num * num;
            return 0.125f * num2;
        }

Thrust damage is almost entirely from mass times velocity squared but swinging damage does not scale as high but also has less chance of doing 0 damage on a low velocity attack.
oh I see. I don't really understand the formulas, but your explanation makes sense. I guess that sort of helps to compensate for the fact that swings can have built in velocity just from twisting your body into the swing, which is a lot harder to do with a thrust.
 
people who use spears are just too afraid to fight in melee (change my mind)
I don't think so. I play on the duel servers frequently and I think that people who fight with spears without shield have to be pretty confident in melee mechanics and blocking to deal with someone who rushes them in the face.
 
oh I see. I don't really understand the formulas, but your explanation makes sense. I guess that sort of helps to compensate for the fact that swings can have built in velocity just from twisting your body into the swing, which is a lot harder to do with a thrust.
That's the concept.

The way I think of it is the angular momentum of a swing attack is implicitly included in a higher base damage (which is then negated back out by such weapons getting a lower multiplier on explicit momentum calculations). The quirks being seen with successful thrust attack damage output are the consequence of trying to marry that "simplification" with the explicit momentum based damage bonus. It is probably possible to fix it by tuning, without having to change the paradigm altogether. Thrust base damage needs to go up a little, and the momentum multiplier for thrusts needs to come down a little so that the variation in damage on thrust attacks isn't as extreme as it is now.

Whether any adjustment to swing attacks is needed isn't clear. Right now too much focus is on thrusting, so people tend to assume swinging is fine because thrusting is the elephant in the room. Maybe swinging is fine, but we won't really be able to give it proper focus until something is done about the elephant.
 
Reducing the weight of spear blades causes faster spears and reduced damage for javelins to somewhat make up for the increase in damage factor. He might have done that as well as reducing stack size.

It was a 1.3 thing. I downloaded a previous version of Stronger Spears and the -1 Javelins count thing is gone. The author of the mod also put up and updated version up for 1.2 under the oldest download.
 
Someone will still come on here and argue that its perfectly natural for a bunch of men in rags armed with rusty farm implements to massacre a group of soldiers armed with spears and shields.
What... are you saying it's not natural for a drunken hobo to stop fully charging heavily armored warhorse with a wooden pitchfork?
 
History: Spears was superior to swords in many situations
Taleworlds: Multiplayer players cried about spears, let's nerf them!
 
Someone will still come on here and argue that its perfectly natural for a bunch of men in rags armed with rusty farm implements to massacre a group of soldiers armed with spears and shields.
Oh yes, because it´s EA and whatever :wink:

Their is now way looters should be able to win against recruits with a shield and a spear.
 
I mean, the spear and shield is a formation dependent combination. There is an argument to be made that sword without shield in a chaotic skirmish is better then shield and spear (variant depending as well).

this is why phalanx troops had short swords as a side arm. One misplaced thrust can now have the opponent inside your effective range.

So this may be partly a formation issue as to the spears problem, but if you are only going to have a single weapon in scrum, a hand weapon is better then a pole weapon.

the biggest problem I have with many of these forums comments is they come from an absolutist mindset with little context. There are plenty of subjective and objective reasons why certain things are operating the way they are. Certain weapons are failing, I agree, but they are failing in certain areas, where in others they should be failing.
 
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