SP - General Sturgia worst performing faction, due to having the worst Troop tree, Liege AI, Economy and Geography.

[Earth Dragon]

One thing to keep in mind is they are aren’t completely pulling these troop trees out of their butt. At least in 4 of the 6 factions, they appear how I’d imagine them based on their real life inspiration factions, with another just lacking some staples and looking a little too striped down, and the last a combination of my ignorance and the appearance of the structure being a bit “gamey” to line up with others. I’d rather they come from a more grounded place when creating troops and tactics and not so much game filler. The trick is getting the AI to comply with this, both with “army builds” and using those armies appropriately.

The Khuzaits have an advantage in this department right now as Horse archer circling tactics are programmed rather well at this stage!

 

[Niomedes]

Not that I've ever seen.

What a genuine shame.

 

[iamnuff]

Applying the player racial bonuses to each entire group could be really interesting.

 

[Earth Dragon]

Applying the player racial bonuses to each entire group could be really interesting.

I'd rather they get unique bonuses since, what good are the Aserai or Empire Bonuses? (And we can now guess what drives your character creation choice )

Just throwing out bonuses:
Sturgians : +1 HP per Troop Rank
Empire: +1 Morale per Troop Rank
Khuzait: +5% Unit Speed
Aserai: +1 Throwing Weapon/+2 Arrows per equipment item
Battanian: Increased Speed when retreating Battlefield/Higher chance to escape captivity
Vlandian: Increased Chance to be wounded versus killed/Lower chance to defect when captured

Not looking to be told how stupid I am because these were put out on the spot and someone disagrees with who gets what, but this would help differentiate these factions much more.

Throwing weapons are spammed by too many unit Rosters as well. It makes the light armor, range heavy factions less impactful (Battanian, Aserai) when 80% of units can skirmish (not including rocks here). This also really crushes shock troops for all factions when there is that much of a volley coming from everyone.

Camels need to be a thing, and they need to cause problems for Horses somehow. Maybe a debuff.

Slings

Put simply, faction right now are just less effective or stronger versions of some other faction at this stage. That may be a slight exaggeration, but we're only a couple degrees off from this being 100% accurate.

 

[iamnuff]

I'd rather they get unique bonuses since, what good are the Aserai or Empire Bonuses? (And we can now guess what drives your character creation choice )

Just throwing out bonuses:
Sturgians : +1 HP per Troop Rank
Empire: +1 Morale per Troop Rank
Khuzait: +5% Unit Speed
Aserai: +1 Throwing Weapon/+2 Arrows per equipment item
Battanian: Increased Speed when retreating Battlefield/Higher chance to escape captivity
Vlandian: Increased Chance to be wounded versus killed/Lower chance to defect when captured

Not looking to be told how stupid I am because these were put out on the spot and someone disagrees with who gets what, but this would help differentiate these factions much more.

Throwing weapons are spammed by too many unit Rosters as well. It makes the light armor, range heavy factions less impactful (Battanian, Aserai) when 80% of units can skirmish (not including rocks here). This also really crushes shock troops for all factions when there is that much of a volley coming from everyone.

Camels need to be a thing, and they need to cause problems for Horses somehow. Maybe a debuff.

Slings

Put simply, faction right now are just less effective or stronger versions of some other faction at this stage. That may be a slight exaggeration, but we're only a couple degrees off from this being 100% accurate.

Eh, that looks unnecessary.
You don't need bonuses to apply to individual units in battle, just the parties on the campaign screen.
Moving well in their own terrain makes sense, getting bonus exp to level up their recruits faster would be very powerful if held by an entire faction. (might want to have it be lower for npc nobles than it would be for a player-character.)

As for the empire... being able to build siege engines faster would make them really good at taking and defending castles.
Caravans... that one is tricky because npcs don't buy caravans, but you could give them an economy boost by saying that their caravans provide more money or something.

 

[Pedanticus]

Sturgian nobles are nords, so their noble line should be elite huscarls, and their levies should be more heavily Slav themed. Or maybe the noble line could split into huscarls vs. Druzhinniks, but I'd rather have both the Nord and Slav elements be highly visible, and highly distinct. Right now we have a weird hybrid that feels like ****.

 

[vemerce]

Okay. So, I'm not far into my Sturgian playthrough. I made a Sturgian and started building an army entirely out of Sturgian troops.

Within the first 20 days of the game, Vlandia was already taking territory from Sturgia, and then the Kuzait started doing it too from the other side by day 30.

My army of Sturgians is incredibly weak. Last time, I did the same thing with Imperials in the early game, and was fine. Even Tier 3-4 Sturgian units seem to get basically slaughtered by any other faction's Tier 1-2 units. When I would get a decisive victory on the battlefield, about half of my army was wounded.

For what it's worth, had some of every unit type Sturgia offers, except possibly the top tier ones. I don't think I could keep any soldiers alive long enough for them to reach top tier. The largest my own party got was 76 troops. I joined Sturgia and gave them the dragon banner in this playthrough, since I'm trying to focus on Sturgia specifically to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not sure that playing with Sturgia and getting involved in their constant wars is really helping me get a feel for their troops, because my guys never get an opportunity to rest. I might start another campaign and hang around Sturgia, but not actually join them. lol.

 

[Androme1]

-Snip-
It would be interesting to have something like a Varangian Guard-ish warrior (not like the Vaegirs), something like a Sturgian who served with the Empire and now comes home equipped in fur-lined Imperial armor.

Of course, a Sturgian army cannot function if the root problems causing them to be made up of mostly recruits is not addressed first...

That is actually a fantastic suggestion. They should just remove the 'Ulfhednar' and replace them with a "Vaegir guard" troop line that is moderaly/heavily armoured and uses a two-handed weapon (ironically since you said they shouldn't be like Vaegirs ). The "Varangian guard" stand-in in the game is actually called "The Vaegir Guard", a Sturgian companion tells you about this.

I'll add that to the main post!

And yes, we can't even begin to fix Sturgias problems if 90% of their troops consists of recruits.

 

[Androme1]

Good thread, didn't realize it existed when I posted mine apparently a few hours after yours. Since we've both identified that Sturgia is currently very lackluster, I see no reason why we shouldn't bring attention to eachothers threads, since we take a deep dive into different subjects regarding the same faction.

Here's my thread: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...p-tree-liege-ai-economy-and-geography.414479/

I'll post a link to yours in my opening post, hopefully you'll do the same for me!

 

[vemerce]

RAGANVAD

- My understanding is that Raganvad has a "Warmonger AI" setting enabled for him, which makes him likely to declare war on other factions. This behaviour combined with the fact that Sturgia has the lowest quality troops, the worst economy and the worst geography, makes Sturgia get completely obliterated even in a 1vs1, let alone a 1vX.
In my recent game, Raganvad declared war on: Vlandia, Battania, Northern Empire, Western Empire, Khuzaits. None of these factions declared war on us, it was Raganvad who declared war on them. From almost day 1 of starting this playthrough, it was constant non-stop war for roughly 300-400 days. And despite eventually building a very strong character, good tactical knowledge of the battlefield and a good party with high quality troops, and defeating lord after lord (I probably captured lords about 50 times during the 300-400 day playthrough), this was not enough to turn the tide of war because we were simply at war with too many factions at once.

- Raganvad also seems to have a tendency to not be generous with the (few) fiefs that we have. Despite already owning a city, he just keeps hoarding fiefs for himself, causing clans to leave the kingdom and join the enemy, worsening the already downward spiral even further. He's also a fan of overruling kingdom laws proposed that would increase militia production during times of war, but only lets through laws which in one way or another enriches him personally to the detriment of others.

- All of the above mentioned facts combined makes Raganvad not only the worst leader in the game, but the worst leader in the game for the worst faction with the worst troops with the worst economy with the worst geography.

I just wanted to add my anecdotal experience with playing a Sturgian and joining Sturgia. Because of the other thread about how weak they were, I decided to roll with a 100% Sturgian party of troops.

From the very beginning, I was taking heavy losses of recruits vs looters and bandits. I didn't have that issue at all on my last playthrough where I went with Imperial recruits. I kept replacing them though, and somehow got to the point where I had 76 troops of various Sturgian types.

I'm not sure who started it, but there was a war early on with Vlandia and the Kuzait. Vlandia took a small castle right near Varcheg and the Kuzaits completely took Tyal within the first couple months of the game.

I signed on as a mercenary for Sturgia right away, and did the main quest, giving them the dragon banner. As soon as I was Clan Rank 2, I became a vassal.

Somehow we ended up at war with the Southern Empire, despite them being nowhere near our territory. We actually seized Lageta. I fought in a few battles as part of other lords' armies, and every time I incurred heavy losses. A lot of my troops are advanced Sturgians before the war, but every battle I lost more and more men. (I even turned the damage done to friendly units down to 1/3 as an experiment and my Sturgians kept dying.)

I did notice during my time playing with Sturgia that no matter how much territory we conquered, I wasn't being given a fief automatically. In my last playthrough, the Southern Empire gave me fiefs I didn't even ask for. But, I did conquer a small castle and then used influence to ask for that castle as a fief. Raganvad actually gave me the one fief I asked for, but he was hoarding like 10 for himself and there were vassals with 1 still.

TLDR; Raganvad picks fights with other factions whether it geographically makes sense or not. Raganvad hoards all the fiefs for himself, unless you use influence to ask for one. Sturgian units by themselves are definitely more fragile and weaker than Imperial units.

 

[Androme1]

-Snip-

This seems pretty much in line with most peoples experience playing as a vassal/mercenary for the Sturgians.
I mean, I'm fine with certain lieges being more selfish and hoard fiefs more than others, but not to the point where this risks having clans leave the faction. And a liege, however selfish/tyrannical, should never be stupid. Lieges are not stupid, and this should apply to Raganvad aswell.
Clearly there's some work to be done in this department to give players who want to play with the Sturgians a more fun experience.

 

[light6486]

As I said on reddit, they really need that elite infantry noble line, I can't play them without it, it's the whole point of them having incredibly good infantry, not another elite cav what is worse than other factions.

Okay. So, I'm not far into my Sturgian playthrough. I made a Sturgian and started building an army entirely out of Sturgian troops.

Within the first 20 days of the game, Vlandia was already taking territory from Sturgia, and then the Kuzait started doing it too from the other side by day 30.

My army of Sturgians is incredibly weak. Last time, I did the same thing with Imperials in the early game, and was fine. Even Tier 3-4 Sturgian units seem to get basically slaughtered by any other faction's Tier 1-2 units. When I would get a decisive victory on the battlefield, about half of my army was wounded.

For what it's worth, had some of every unit type Sturgia offers, except possibly the top tier ones. I don't think I could keep any soldiers alive long enough for them to reach top tier. The largest my own party got was 76 troops. I joined Sturgia and gave them the dragon banner in this playthrough, since I'm trying to focus on Sturgia specifically to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not sure that playing with Sturgia and getting involved in their constant wars is really helping me get a feel for their troops, because my guys never get an opportunity to rest. I might start another campaign and hang around Sturgia, but not actually join them. lol.

Vlandia and khuzait seems always stronger than sturgia, I remember when I was trying to play sturgians vlandia captured Varcheg very early, then Omor too.

 

[vemerce]

This seems pretty much in line with most peoples experience playing as a vassal/mercenary for the Sturgians.
I mean, I'm fine with certain lieges being more selfish and hoard fiefs more than others, but not to the point where this risks having clans leave the faction. And a liege, however selfish/tyrannical, should never be stupid. Lieges are not stupid, and this should apply to Raganvad aswell.
Clearly there's some work to be done in this department to give players who want to play with the Sturgians a more fun experience.

What I find to be the most ironic about Raganvad is that when I joined his faction he gave me some line about how he'd make sure I was well fed and I was showered in gold basically... Making it seem like I'd never want for anything. Then he hoards everything like a dragon. lol

 

[andycott]

Suggestion. Maths and Winter attrition for balance. Detailed explanation

 

[Yyrkroon]

Infantry focused and infantry exclusive are not the same things. Vaegirs, who in the lore of the game are ancestors of Sturgians have second/third best heavy cavalry in the game. From a historical inspiration point of view, noble line is also very well made, as Sturgians are Russians.

Or put another way, Vaegirs have the worst heavy cav in the game.

1 & 2 clearly go to Swadia and Sarranids.
Nords and Rhodoks don't have cav.
Khergits don't have heavy cav.

 

[Tomash]

+1 for bringing back Huscarls, they're exactly what Sturgia needs.

 

[Mote]

Good thread, didn't realize it existed when I posted mine apparently a few hours after yours. Since we've both identified that Sturgia is currently very lackluster, I see no reason why we shouldn't bring attention to eachothers threads, since we take a deep dive into different subjects regarding the same faction.

Here's my thread: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...p-tree-liege-ai-economy-and-geography.414479/

I'll post a link to yours in my opening post, hopefully you'll do the same for me!

Added!

Okay. So, I'm not far into my Sturgian playthrough. I made a Sturgian and started building an army entirely out of Sturgian troops.

Within the first 20 days of the game, Vlandia was already taking territory from Sturgia, and then the Kuzait started doing it too from the other side by day 30.

My army of Sturgians is incredibly weak. Last time, I did the same thing with Imperials in the early game, and was fine. Even Tier 3-4 Sturgian units seem to get basically slaughtered by any other faction's Tier 1-2 units. When I would get a decisive victory on the battlefield, about half of my army was wounded.

For what it's worth, had some of every unit type Sturgia offers, except possibly the top tier ones. I don't think I could keep any soldiers alive long enough for them to reach top tier. The largest my own party got was 76 troops. I joined Sturgia and gave them the dragon banner in this playthrough, since I'm trying to focus on Sturgia specifically to get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not sure that playing with Sturgia and getting involved in their constant wars is really helping me get a feel for their troops, because my guys never get an opportunity to rest. I might start another campaign and hang around Sturgia, but not actually join them. lol.

Sturgian t3 and t4 units are really just awful. In my test of 250 imperial t4 troops vs 250 sturgian t4 troops, the Sturgian troops got 5 kills,

 

[Maximum997]

Sturgians was inspired from normans+nothern russians.(Thats why we have units like "druzhinnik" and Varyag") And they loved spears. And guess what - spears was frkn awesome in a shield wall formation.

So i love how they looks and feels.

But TS is right. Spears in this games just suck. And their units too.

 

[Egolith]

I'd rather they get unique bonuses since, what good are the Aserai or Empire Bonuses? (And we can now guess what drives your character creation choice )

Just throwing out bonuses:
Sturgians : +1 HP per Troop Rank
Empire: +1 Morale per Troop Rank
Khuzait: +5% Unit Speed
Aserai: +1 Throwing Weapon/+2 Arrows per equipment item
Battanian: Increased Speed when retreating Battlefield/Higher chance to escape captivity
Vlandian: Increased Chance to be wounded versus killed/Lower chance to defect when captured

I like this idea of faction specific bonuses, would add some extra depth to unit selection and army composition. Though I think some of the ones suggested are a bit OP and some underpowered . You said you did this off the top of your head so I will cut you some slack on this. My thoughts would be:

- Aserai: 5% Movement speed in battle (both for ground and cavalry).
- Battania: 2% Increased damage to archery units.
- Khuzait: X% Decrease to weapon debuffs while on horseback. (Not sure how big the debuff is as I only know it's there from some character perks).
- Empire/Imperial: 2% Increased morale at the start of battle.
- Sturgia: 2% Increased HP. Another option if we want to use a berserker mechanic is; If the unit drops below 50% HP, increase it's damage by 10%.
- Vlandia: 2% Increase to crossbow damage (for crossbowmen) and 2% Increase to defense from projectile damage (for all non-crossbowmen).

The % values can be changed to make it more balanced or even switch them to have absolute numbers instead (like +2 HP instead of +2% HP).

 

[rkpls]

i think i found some mixed up stats for their elite troop - they should have more polearm skill than bow skill right?

Mixed-up-stats-sturgian-elite-troop

Image Mixed-up-stats-sturgian-elite-troop hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co