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Sturgia worst performing faction, due to having the worst Troop tree, Liege AI, Economy and Geography.
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Maximum997
Squire
It should be balance, but asymmetrical balance. Someone has best heavy can, someone the best archers, someone the best light cav...
Strugia has the worst archers, the worst cav, so they should have the best melee fighers. Not armored, but very hard hiting.
Good example - Prophecy of Pendor balance. Fierdsvain isnt the most armored faction, but their melee infantry is the best in the game becouse hits very hard.
No recruits start with the shields as far as I can recall. They are all the same except weapon they are using. Sturgian recruits survive any better or worst then other recruits in battles.
Also don't use shieldwall in close combat, you will get your men killed. Shieldwall is only for missile protection. As soon as enemy closes distance, tell your men to charge.
The worst cavalry is Batanian one and Sturgian elite heavy cav is second best in the game. Their raider cav is also decent as a skirmishing cav. Sturgian veteran warrior is the best 1H melee unit in the game. And their 2H units will absolutely slaughter anything in close combat, including enemy heavy cav.
Also don't use shieldwall in close combat, you will get your men killed. Shieldwall is only for missile protection. As soon as enemy closes distance, tell your men to charge.
The worst cavalry is Batanian one and Sturgian elite heavy cav is second best in the game. Their raider cav is also decent as a skirmishing cav. Sturgian veteran warrior is the best 1H melee unit in the game. And their 2H units will absolutely slaughter anything in close combat, including enemy heavy cav.
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Maximum997
Squire
Use their second top tier.
Maximum997
Squire
And they are still not better then another 2 handers from other factions. And Their "2-nd strongest heavy cav" looses to any another heavy cav in the game.
Javeline cav AI just doesnt exist. You need to babyseat them whole time to do anything and not die instantly.
And exept t5 1 handers they infantry loose to any infantry of the same tiers. And your(and your lords) main core will be t2-t4 troops where they have worst troops in the game.
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Yeah this is the answer.
The way it should theoretically work is that a strong offensive tactic breeds a strength to counter that from your most common opponents. Whether that's tactical or in troop types... maybe the issue Sturgians have is that because of the geography, they have at least 4 potential enemies (maybe 5?) at the start of the game who all have different strengths?
Maximum997
Squire
Like which ones? It's not like there are many 2H available to other factions, do they?
Nope. Only Vlandia have better heavy cav. And unlike Imperial heavy cav, Sturgian one has a shield.
Javelin cav uses the exact same AI that horse archers do and is actually very good. You just need to use it. If you tell your cav to charge (F3), they will ride strait in to the enemy. But if you tell them to advance (F4), they will try to keep distance and fire their ranged weapon until ammo is depleted. Works for foot archers as well btw, they will try to keep their distance from enemy. Helps against babysitting.
Lower tier units of all factions are essentially the same, there is no practical difference between them. Sturgians are bit more effective against the armor with their axes while say Empire is better against unarmored ones with their swords. But in tier 4 Sturgia could get some improvement, that I would agree.
Maximum997
Squire
They don't. Compare t1-3 of Sturgia and Empire and you have the same equpment. T1 is basic peasant without armor, t2 is padded armor, soft cap and shield and t3 is padded armor, metallic helmet, shoulders (Sturgia have weaker shoulders but not as weak as to make large difference) and shield.
It's only t4 that is weaker. Now note that it's t4 that spawns in the custom battles.
Maximum997
Squire
One guy already tested all tiers. You can change it in "Custombattle" module
In Depth Sturgian Unit Testing
I dove deeper into the numbers and ran some practical tests. Looking at armor values and equipment + stats is all well and good, but it's difficult to see how those values actually play out in reality. So I spent a good few hours gathering data and decided to run an experiment, so break out your high school science textbooks because we are about to bring some science to this forum.
For testing, I manually modified the game data files so that custom battles would contain each of the desired units for testing. After these modifications, I started a 250 v 250 battle of Sturgian Units vs each of other factions equivalent units. I then recorded these tests, which are linked below. For your convenience, I have compiled a chart showing whether the Sturgian unit won or lost the battle. I replicated this design across many of the later tier troops and types:
| Empire | Aserai | Vlandia | Battania | Khuzait | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| T5 Ranged | Lose | Lose | Lose | Lose* | Lose |
| T5 Missile Cav | Lose | Lose | n/a | (Lose) | Lose |
| T3 Infantry | (Lose) | (Lose) | Win | (Lose) | Lose |
| T4 Infantry | Lose | Lose | Lose | Lose | Lose |
| T5 2H Infantry | Win** | Lose | (Lose) | Lose | n/a |
| T6 Heavy Cav | Lose | Lose | Lose | n/a | n/a |
| T5 Infantry (Veterans) | Tie | Win | Win | Win*** | (Win) |
| T5 Infantry (Shock Troop) | Win | Win | Win | Win | Win |
- Win = Sturgia Wins
- Lose = Sturgia Loses
- () = Close Match (~50 or less remaining)
- * = Used Battanian Heroes, the t4 noble line. Fians or Fian Champions would be a slaughter
- ** = Imperial Elite Menavliaton are technically polearm units, so are probably more of an anti-cavalry unit than an anti-infantry one.
- *** = Used Wildlings instead of Oathsworn since it is a closer analog
- While these results were roughly in line with my expectations and for the most part speak for themselves, there were a couple of unexpected results:
- Different units of the same type can have different gear. Each unit has up to 3 different gear sets, and each unit is randomly given one of these sets. There can be quite a variation between these gear sets, for example, Shock Troops have 3 different possible shields and 2 different cape slot items. They can have lamellar plate shoulders or a 2 armor scarf. They can also have the typical round shield, a kite shield, or the ****ty t4 spearman shield. Another interesting example is the Vlandian Sergeant, who can have a mace, a sword or a 2h axe as a backup weapon.
- Sturgia has the worst t4 infantry of any faction. The Sturgian Spearmen lost overwhelmingly to every other factions t4 equivalent. It wasn't even close.
- Sturgia has the worst ranged unit of any faction*. As long as you count the battanian noble line, which I think is fair. They get crushed by the third tier of the noble Battanian line, and there are two upgrades above that.
- Sturgia has the second worst t3 infantry in the game. The only unit that lost to the Sturgian Soldier was the Vlandian Infantry and Vlandian Spearmen. Although, I must say they over performed compared to my expectations. Even their losses were quite close. I think the Sturgian Soldiers "Success" can be attributed to their head armor. They have the best helmet of the entire t3 roster, and when you get in mosh-pit fights, AI often spams overhead attacks aimed at the head, so having good head armor really makes a difference here.
- Sturgia has the second worst 2h infantry in the game. Throwing axes help a little bit here, but the ulfhedhar really are bottom of the barrel. 2H units are already a questionable niche, and this is one of the worst units of that niche. If you want a dedicated 2H unit, take the Aserai Mameluke Palace Guards. They are absolute tanks and were carving through Ulfhednar like they were nothing.
- Sturgia, predictably, has the worst heavy cavalry noble line. Part of this can be written off to mismatched stats. Another small thing to note, is that they are quite slow for heavy cav.
- Veterans are pretty great infantry. Not much to say here, the only unit that could beat them head-to-head was the Imperial Legionaries. Their stats and gear really do speak for themselves.
- Shock Troops are actually amazing? This was completely unexpected. On paper, they are inferior to the veterans in every way. Lower armor, lower stats, worse shields and chance of having a ****ty tiny shield. The dark horse here was their secondary weapon: a tier 5 war-razor and some advantageous AI. When the shock troops approach, they approach with their shields in front of them and axe drawn, which keeps them alive from projectiles, but once they get in melee range, they switch to their 2h war-razor. Remember when I said AI spam overheads once they get into a very tight lined battle? Well they start swinging these crazy 2h pole-arms overhead, which will easily 1 shot heavy infantry. They absolutely melt even the heaviest of infantry. The downside of this, of course, being that they swap their weapons when they reach the enemy line. This often means they take a fair number of losses before they get a chance to start carving through enemy infantry.
- Overall, Sturgia has a pitiful 10/36 win ratio against other factions, and we tested their entire t5 base roster + noble line. They have the worst ranged units, the worst cavalry, and some of the worst non-t5 infantry in the entire game. But we already knew that from looking at the stats, what we didn't know is the sleeper potential of the Sturgian Shock Troops. While I don't think they out-perform veterans in all scenarios, in a pure infantry vs infantry scenario, the Shock Troop markedly outperforms the Veterans against every faction. The Veterans however have better shields and much more armor, so they will make a much sturdier front line, and have the added utility of javelins.
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That actually confirms mostly what I said. Sturgian t5 are best in the game. Their weakens is the t4. There is no big difference between units in the t1-3. Sure, t3 did 1 win against 4 losses but 3 of those loses were close loses.
Maximum997
Squire
Their t5 archers suck, their missle cav suck,their noble cav suck, their 2 handers suck. And at another tiers they are the worst\the same.
And even imperial infantry is a match for "OP" veterans. But ofcourse you ignored all of that.
T3-T4 is a main core of army right now. And at that tier they are bad in every possible way.
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I newer said anything about their archers, nor is there reason for Sturgia to be best in everything, there are only handful factions with 2H in the game, and Sturgia have them, I do question how they are equipped, but then you don't have to upgrade t4 to t5 if you don't want to. They are niche units anyway and best to be employed in anti-cavalry role. Their t5 infantry is best in the game, match or no match and main core of army are t1-t2. At last if you talk about AI armies.
Use mod to fix misplaced stats on noble cavalry line if you can't wait for it to be patched. Not that it makes any diference given you don't use heavy cav armies that fight another heavy cav armies. And spear stab from a cavalry doesn't really rely on stats all that much as the speed bonus is really decisive here.
As for player armies, core is what you make core to be, it's not that it really matters because player armies are OP compared to AI anyway.
Yes, weak t4 hurts, there I agree.
[Edit:] And I forgot the most important thing, 1:1 test battles will not show you how good unit is. It will only show you how good that unit is against that particular enemy unit. For example Imperial heavy cav may beat Sturgian heavy cav thanks to their longer lances, but Sturgian heavy cav will not die under missile fire like Imperial will, because Sturgian cav have shields while Imperial does not. Battles are not duels between equal units. Not to mention that your cavalry also have to fight in sieges.
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Maximum997
Squire
And dy the way? Is their faction leader insane in the lore? Becouse in the game he is just crazy.
They do have one single matching piece, and they go along really well in my opinion. And the latest patch that gave the nobles and some of the units different/more armour pieces did a good job in my opinion.
But I still think aesthetic wise there's more to be done, simple things such as alternative versions of the northern mail that gives different colours on the pants instead of just white/red, some examples being: green/brown, red/gold, blue/gold, blue/white. There should also be colour variations on that new shoulder piece that was added, and others.
The "brass shoulderpads" or whatever they're called are just straight out of a fantasy game, in my opinion just remove them
The "northern warlord helmet" is probably the ugliest helmet in the game, and also happens to be the best one, and also happens to be used by sea raiders for some reason. Honestly just nerf it, it doesn't even look functionally the best.
TLDR: More armour pieces, more colour variants of the same pieces. More cloth and more furs.
I'm biased regarding my opinions about how much influence from what historical peoples Sturgia should have, mostly because I'm just so tired of seeing vikings everywhere for the past 20 years in video games and movies, Slavic inspiration and aesthetics is such a refreshing change. But the faction and its lore is what it is, and the sources for its inspiration aswell, so I think that having access to recruits from the Skolderbrotva would be the single best way to achieve what you write about.
It would also lorewise make the most sense, I'll explain why: While it does seem like some Nords have moved into Sturgian lands (a few notables spawn with Norse names as opposed to Slavic ones), I don't think the presence warrants an easily accessible Nord troop tree (not saying you said that), and the factions lore is that the most Nord involvment with Sturgia so far has been through mercenaries as opposed to anything else, so when we do have a literal Nord mercenary company as a minor faction within Sturgia, I think we should make use of that.
I think further down the early access development line as the main factions interactions with their minor factions grows, we'll probably see that happen, hopefully atleast.
Also: Raganvads mother is stated to be a Nord with ties to the Skolderbrotva company, so almost exactly like you wrote, the lore is all there already, we just need to be given access to Skolderbrotva recruits someway.
I have seen your mod, so far most modders are doing a very good job with makeshift balancing and you're no exception, good job but I prefer to play with stat-fixing mods so far
I like staying as true to the intended vanilla design as possible.Well, we can change stats aswell, so why not change the stats? I don't see why we would have to be locked into balancing units a certain way because their stats are currently in a certain way.
Besides fixing stats and fixing equipment (i.e buffing), I can summarize in my opinon what Sturgia needs with this:
- The Lords need to fight on foot with their infantry in order to not be too exposed, or if more cavalry is introduced, they can continue fighting on horseback.
- If cavalry is made available through the basic troop tree line, then the Lords should continue fighting on horseback, and if that is done, then the Druzhinnik needs to be turned into a very strong infantry unit, otherwise Sturgia would become too cavalry-heavy (this is an opinion and not necessarily a point regarding balance).
- If cavalry is not made available through the basic troop tree line, then Druzhinnik still needs to be turned into a very strong infantry unit, but the Lords need to start fighting on foot with the infantry, otherwise they'd be too exposed. Not to mention that the Druzhinniks would be too exposed aswell as they are right now as the sole melee cavalry unit of Sturgia, they're simply too few in numbers and just straight up die all the time.
- Ulfhednar/Shock Troop needs to be combined into a new proper 2H+1H+THROW+SHIELD unit with actual good armour and stats. Currently there's literally no reason to recruit either of them, because both are lacking in the department where they need to be good. If the final basic troop tree infantry choice stands between: Standard heavy infantry with very good 1H and Throwing VS Shock heavy infantry with very good 2H and Athlethics then that is an actual meaningful choice, as opposed to the current choice between three units, of which two are lackluster compared to the veteran warrior.
I didn't take autocalculation bonuses into consideration, but since not every faction has every sort of unit (I don't think Vlandia or Battania have horse archers) I don't think it's a necessity for Sturgia to have one either, although it would make sense considering their proximity to the Khuzaits. But if the choice is between Horse Archer and regular Cavalry, I'd give Sturgia regular cavalry. A solution of course could be to split the final line of a cavalry line into a horse archer and a regular cavalry unit.
pras
Recruit
I kinda forgot about those guys. Would make more sense that berserkers yes. They should be left for Nord DLC if they ever do it (that huge empty space north east of Sibir kinda calls for that)
I agree with OP on everything except switching village production, what we need are workshops that use what sturgia produces instead since all endgame towns struggle with food later on.
Suggestions:
Food Processing Workshop
2 Fish +1 Salt = 3 Dried Fish
2 Meat + 1 Salt = 3 Jerky
4 Grain + 1 Salt = 5 Rations
Tannery
1 Fur + 1 Iron = fur armor
1 Fur + 1 velvet = luxury clothing
Also those butter feasts were incredible
Suggestions:
Food Processing Workshop
2 Fish +1 Salt = 3 Dried Fish
2 Meat + 1 Salt = 3 Jerky
4 Grain + 1 Salt = 5 Rations
Tannery
1 Fur + 1 Iron = fur armor
1 Fur + 1 velvet = luxury clothing
Wrong, Harlaus was a fool, but a very lovable one.
Also those butter feasts were incredible
