When an expensive, heavy iron helmet is only as good as a peasant's leather cap... something is very wrong

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Lord Earl

Karen
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The Heavy Nasalhelm over laced cloth has 13 armor. So does a Northern Roughide cap, which has the same armor AND is significantly lighter.

I expect the balance is messed up all over the place. But there's one clear example of the problem here. A spreadsheet could tell you immediately the balance is wrong there, where the price and weight of the cap does not justify its defence.
 
I couldn't agree more. This was a problem in the original M&B, and then again in Warband.

Worse, this is a very simple fix, and a basic quality control issue. While I'm fine with there being a lot of bugs in the game during EA for us to help iron out, this kind of thing is pretty inexcusable. There are many incidents of armour that is obvious of inferior construction having superior stats. Shoes with calf wrappings should not grant more armour than leather boots with metal plate over the shins. Nor should a nasalhelm offer the same protection as a leather cap.

I'm all for fudging stats a little so that some atmospheric elements can be maintained (such as the Wolfskins armour perhaps being slightly disproportionate so that the supposed badass faction doesn't fold like wet cardboard every fight)... but inconsistencies in gear should not be this rampant.
 
You have said it well. Unfortunately, the item files aren't available to us, or I'd begin work on a realism rebalance mod.

I am amazed that after about six games, the developers are still making these basic mistakes.... Maybe they're just resigned to let modders do the work for them.
 
I couldn't agree more. This was a problem in the original M&B, and then again in Warband.

Worse, this is a very simple fix, and a basic quality control issue. While I'm fine with there being a lot of bugs in the game during EA for us to help iron out, this kind of thing is pretty inexcusable. There are many incidents of armour that is obvious of inferior construction having superior stats. Shoes with calf wrappings should not grant more armour than leather boots with metal plate over the shins. Nor should a nasalhelm offer the same protection as a leather cap.

I'm all for fudging stats a little so that some atmospheric elements can be maintained (such as the Wolfskins armour perhaps being slightly disproportionate so that the supposed badass faction doesn't fold like wet cardboard every fight)... but inconsistencies in gear should not be this rampant.

in the game data, module/sandboxcore/moduledata/spiteitems.xml thats where you will find all the armor values :wink: so if you wanted to make that mod
 
My point is that this shouldn't even need to be a mod. This is something very basic that should have been at least relatively set before even the early access launch.

This and the NPC stats are absolutely out of whack. I pulled "Selag the Healer" into my party -- turns out she's a combat monster with 8 Vitality and lots of focus in combat skills, but only 3 Int and 1 point of focus in Medicine... with a 60 skill, so she technically exceeds the max level, and so can't advance in the skill you want her for. Nor are her other skills balanced so that she advances worth a damn, so she's basically frozen half-useless.
 
in the game data, module/sandboxcore/moduledata/spiteitems.xml thats where you will find all the armor values :wink: so if you wanted to make that mod
This shouldn't have to be a mod... but thanks for pointing out where that file is. I'll probably start working on a rebalance mod, to make the game tolerable.
 
This shouldn't have to be a mod... but thanks for pointing out where that file is. I'll probably start working on a rebalance mod, to make the game tolerable.
if you do that would be absolutely amazing, because that other annoying part is that if you started with the best base game equipment it can be hours before you find anything thats better than 18 body armor. like its leather, a military Gambeson should be better than leathers
 
Yeah... I shudder to think about the amount of work that is ahead of me. I'll probably start by just copying out some stats from the old RCM mod that a bunch of old Mount & Blade mods used. Someone showed me where I could find the damage formula, as well... so I may exploit that to make a really thrilling damage model.
 
Yeah... I shudder to think about the amount of work that is ahead of me. I'll probably start by just copying out some stats from the old RCM mod that a bunch of old Mount & Blade mods used. Someone showed me where I could find the damage formula, as well... so I may exploit that to make a really thrilling damage model.
well I know looking through it they have a maximum armor of 55 and a min of 0 so really all you need to do is look through and find what item is made of which material then just change it so it makes sense I guess?
 
It'll be a lot more complicated than that. I will have to look at each model to guess at what quality of helmet it is.
 
If there were a convenient modding tool for the community, so we could easily go through the list and find the appearance of the items in question, that would be a different thing. Otherwise it's an onerous amount of work for little payoff.

I never liked the RCM, myself. I always felt it took things too literally, and was so fixated on hyper-realism that it made things even more unrealistic.
 
if you do that would be absolutely amazing, because that other annoying part is that if you started with the best base game equipment it can be hours before you find anything thats better than 18 body armor. like its leather, a military Gambeson should be better than leathers
One of the issues here is that there is simply too many different types of equipment. Every faction should have some flavor gear, but a spear is a spear and a sword is a sword. By creating so much insane variety of weapons and armor TaleWorlds has set themselves up to let a lot of game balance headaches.

One of the reasons Warband was eventually balanced in a mostly tolerable way is that there was a lot of overlap in equipment, which made ensuring parity a lot easier. In this game every faction has faction specific equipment from bottom to top, and that's simply not how armies worked in the ancient world, where weapons and armor tended to be looted from the battlefield and Romans tended to fight a lot of enemies armed with Roman equipment as a result.
 
I was working on an spitems.xml rebalance mod yesterday until the patch replaced my file and ruined my progress, but you'll find out there's not much to do as the prices are still going to be messed up (you'll pay very low for a helmet that's meant to be very good). From what I understood from a developer, Taleworlds is already rebalancing armor and items right now, so we just have to wait.

Meanwhile, I made a thread about this here: I'd love to see more people contributing. I can't catch all of the items by myself: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...uestionable-items-armor-weapon-values.400838/
 
If there were a convenient modding tool for the community, so we could easily go through the list and find the appearance of the items in question, that would be a different thing. Otherwise it's an onerous amount of work for little payoff.

I never liked the RCM, myself. I always felt it took things too literally, and was so fixated on hyper-realism that it made things even more unrealistic.
The RCM was overwhelmingly popular. That's why so many mods adopted it, and TLD had a landslide vote in favor of using it. So it's not a small pay-off. It was a bit of a surprise to me, when I realized how much item stats could totally change an experience.

Not sure what you considered unrealistic about it. There were a lot of compromises that had to be made due to engine limitations. One of the main interests in BL is that a better engine with more access to files might change things.

I was working on an spitems.xml rebalance mod yesterday until the patch replaced my file and ruined my progress, but you'll find out there's not much to do as the prices are still going to be messed up (you'll pay very low for a helmet that's meant to be very good). From what I understood from a developer, Taleworlds is already rebalancing armor and items right now, so we just have to wait.

Meanwhile, I made a thread about this here: I'd love to see more people contributing. I can't catch all of the items by myself: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...uestionable-items-armor-weapon-values.400838/
Yeah, I've been thinking I need to keep my edited files in a different folder, protected from updates. Until we get modding tools, it's going to be a pain to work out how to update files with the updates. I expect many of the files won't get touched in most of the updates.
 
Lord Earl: I felt it erred too much on the end of deadliness of weapons, and effectiveness of armour. Part of the experience of the game is that it feels like a game. In this case, we have 'berserker' characters running around with items that shouldn't grant much in the way of armour, but add to the flavour of things. I'd hate to see that ruined by someone's obsession with 'realism'.

Nevermind that weapons of the era ranged widely in how sharp or dull they might be entering a fight, or halfway through, or at the end of a battle -- or that variances in metal quality could tilt the odds wildly, craftsmanship -- or that fights might result in bruises and cuts rather than outright brutality and death. The death tolls in many battles is surprisingly low compared to modern expectations of that kind of warfare.

But in general, while I like to see consistency in these games (chain should provide more protection than soft leather, a chain shirt that guards the torso but not the legs should have a high armour value on the torso and low on the legs -- not the reverse, etc), I find notions of realism to be overwrought, and generally turn things into a dull slog to get the most effective armour, which then becomes another dull slog of riding around nigh invulnerable. The RCM had a very dedicated fan base. I don't know that it was overwhelmingly popular. I felt it used a sledgehammer where a mallet tap would do. When it came to attempts at realism, I preferred Spanky's 12th/13th century mod for original M&B (though the name currently escapes me); it created consistency and fostered the feel of the era without losing the M&B feel.
 
Berserkers are meant to die. That's what going berserk entails, you rush into the enemy like a frightening monster, kill some of them, and go down. Without high lethality... they would just die after wounding a couple of people, considering how bad the AI is and there are no deep morale mechanics.
 
honestly I dont think we need to balance the weapons only the armor needs to be looked at to make it a little more consistant with what they are made out of not compared to the real world but just the other objects in game, like why would an open faced helmet over chain be MORE EFFECTIVE than a nazle helmet over chain? or a leather cap be better than a metal helmet. weapons should stay unchanged
 
I vehemently disagree. It feels stupid when I hit a bandit solidly on his naked neck or head, while riding past at full tilt, and he is just fine. Even on foot, I expect a proper swing to a naked neck with a one-handed sword to decapitate someone.

It also makes being outnumbered a hundred time worse, as you can't skillfully eliminate your opponents before you're overwhelmed. Damage is just high enough that you will die pretty quickly as you're swarmed, though.
 
Speaking of realism: that's how a real fight works. You don't skillfully eliminate people.when you're getting mobbed: you fight desperately and you're lucky if you don't go down fast.

As for berserkers: the eddas that they're based on appears to disagree with your assessment. Far from one-shot wonders, they were feared individuals who lived long enough to make a reputation.

The falx, war razor, and a couple of the bigger Sturgian two handed axes are capable of taking even decently armoured characters down in one or two shots. An aze-armed berserker with a high 2h skill should still be a terrifying monster. Especially if that last perk on the 2h tree is as broken as it looks.

The weapons could use a little rebalancing too, but in general I agree with Wulf; I like the feel of things, I just want them consistent.
 
One of the issues here is that there is simply too many different types of equipment. Every faction should have some flavor gear, but a spear is a spear and a sword is a sword. By creating so much insane variety of weapons and armor TaleWorlds has set themselves up to let a lot of game balance headaches.

One of the reasons Warband was eventually balanced in a mostly tolerable way is that there was a lot of overlap in equipment, which made ensuring parity a lot easier. In this game every faction has faction specific equipment from bottom to top, and that's simply not how armies worked in the ancient world, where weapons and armor tended to be looted from the battlefield and Romans tended to fight a lot of enemies armed with Roman equipment as a result.

Quoted because it deserves to be repeated. Outside of visual flavour touches, or maybe a tweak here and there for some kind of tech superiority (e.g. Khergit bows having an advantage, the different horse breeds among cultures, etc), the equipment should be very similar across the board. Outliers could exist for specialty items or a few unique factional touches (everybody has different shoulder gear/cloaks over chain shirts), but in large the basics shouldn't vary too much.
 
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