[Suggestion] "Fix" bastard swords

[ScientiaExcelsa]

I'll make it short.

1: High speed
2: High damage
3: Shield "wraparound"
4: "Kickslash" ability
5: Insta-stab

My claim is that all these features combined make it excessively newbie-friendly, "spammable", (I don't use that term lightly) and generally the most out-of-control weapon in the game.

I'm inclined to think that a speed reduction is the best fix for it.  Yes, I'm familiar with the physics thing.  Regardless, that much power and that much speed don't belong together at that price.  Giving them the "unbalanced" flag might work too.

Cue the condescending comments: "You just need to learn how to fight them"; "Just because you can't beat it doesn't mean it's OP".  That's no argument, people.

 

[Berserker Pride]

#4 Needs to go.  It takes it from the realm of a powerful weapon all the way to haxor weapon.

 

[Sarejo]

If kickslash gets a smaller window of opportunity, #4 wouldn't be a problem.

Giving them the unbalanced tag makes no sense; they are not unbalanced. If you want to do something (I think nothing needs to be done about the bastard sword, I think they are fine the way the are now), increase the price to something like 390 and 670. But don't mess with the weapon's properties/attributes.

 

[darkhorse]

I don't see bastard swords dominating the field like I do great long axes and other weapons with "great" in their name.

 

[Shik]

I disagree. I think bastard swords are mostly fine, and they definitely should not get the unbalanced tag. If anything, it's the kickslash that needs to go. The damage might be just a little bit too high, but it's mostly fine, IMO.

There's also no such thing as the insta-stab anymore - that ceased to exist many versions ago. It's hardly difficult to block along the vertical axis.

 

[A_Mustang]

plus, they suck on horseback

 

[Sheepskin Seatcovers]

Kickslash is not the best idea...  Let's try discussing ideas that don't offer a "crutch" for players.  I prefer this game to remain skill based please.

 

[Night Ninja]

Reduce the damage and tweak the #$@&ing animations.

The shield wraparound usually occurs on the backswing, when you're supposed to be recovering into a guard position. There should be a massive damage penalty in that window. This ties into the sweet spots discussion as well.

Kickslash should be dealt with separately, since its bloody ridiculous as it is and tends to become a win button. Some days I start wishing that kicking extended the hitbox as well, just so that I could hack the poncy can-can git's leg off and bugger him with it.

 

[JoG]

I'll make it short.

1: High speed

Well, it is a sword, isn't it? Don't forget, it's actually SLOWER than 1h sword. And its reach is almost the same as the reach of a regular 1h sword.

2: High damage

It takes 2-3 hits to kill a person in 2nd tier armor (like swadian red gambeson). Probably you have to land 3-4 hits to kill a nord in a leather armor for some reason. Don't forget, you basically take a 1h sword with a slightly longer grip and start swinging it using the power of both of your arms. It SHOULD do more damage, shouldn't it?

3: Shield "wraparound"

I could say that about any other weapons. If you want to avoid it, all you have to do is to move your mouse a bit in order to face your opponent. That's it!

4: "Kickslash" ability

As for any other weapons. Another thing: since it has almost the same length as 1h swords you can also kick-slash a bastard sword user.

5: Insta-stab

As for any other weapons with thrusting ability. I could say even more, in close combat stabbing with a bastard sword is not as effective as stabbing with a shorter 1h sword, because very often it just doesn't do any damage to your opponent, while his cutting blow does. It happens to me very often, so I prefer not to use the stab at all, as long as my opponent is close to me.

And... As a bastard sword user (I started practicing with a regular bastard sword in Warband since I became involved in beta-testing in 0.5xx. I continued fighting with it even though in some patches it was not nearly as effective as other types of weapons), I have to say: in this patch bastard sword is spammable only if your opponent allows you to spam. Of course, if he starts his swing in 2 seconds after blocking yours, why don't you try to land another swing on his head? If he is experienced enough and starts his blow in time, you have to block it, otherwise you'll die. Moreover, very often I block two swings before starting my own one.

Don't forget, bastard sword is much shorter than other 2h weapons except 2h nord axes (which means that you HAVE to block carefully in order to survive), and it's terribly slow in 1h mode (basically, if I see someone using a bastard sword with a shield I just start spamming blows and I don't stop until that guy is dead). Again: bastard sword is not longer that one-handed swords. This 2-centimeter-difference (99 vs 101) is negligible. So, it has to have at least some advantages (don't forget, it's the ultimate sword design).

I will repeat this again and again: the balance of the relative weapon speeds is perfect in this patch. Unlike at the time of 0.6xx patches, where we had either spammable axes or spammable short swords, no particular type of weapon is spammable now. If your opponent starts spamming then either you allow him to do this or he's dead pretty soon.
We can make a quick test: take a bastard sword and I'll take 1h+shield. Try to spam blows, then we'll switch sides/weapons (if only my ping will be ok, 'cause now I'm getting 250+ ping spikes almost every single minute).

Sorry for my English...
PS

Reduce the damage and tweak the #$@&ing animations.

Nerf it cuzz it's killing me!
Do you know the damage values for the bastard sword? It's 35c/26p in 2h mode. It's cutting damage is less than that of many of the nordic 1h axes! For the Swadian best ONE-HANDED arming sword it's 29c/24p, so there's almost no difference in thrust damage! Hell yeah, nerf it even more!
If you are talking about "turning into a swing" you can do this with 1h weapons as well. If you don't turn into your swing, the speed of the bastard sword is basically the same (and even a bit lower) than that of the 1h sword.
So, the only real advantage of the bastard sword over the best 1h Swadian sword is 20% more cutting damage (notice this, it's only 20% more, despite you use the power of your both arms). Don't forget, this advantage works only in 2h mode.

The shield wraparound usually occurs on the backswing, when you're supposed to be recovering into a guard position. There should be a massive damage penalty in that window. This ties into the sweet spots discussion as well.

I do believe that there is no such thing as damage during backswing. I'm beta-testing Warband since 0.5xx and I've never been hit during backswing. I've never hit my opponents during backswing as well.

 

[Seawied86]

Bastard sword just needs to been slowed down a bit. Theres a reason everyone uses it in duels

 

[JoG]

Bastard sword just needs to been slowed down a bit. Theres a reason everyone uses it in duels

My reasoning is that:
1. I love this sword, its shape and proportions. I believe regular bastard sword is the most elegant sword in Warband.
2. Surprise(!): I use this sword because it's actually shorter than any other of the 2h swords ingame. It means that I have to block first. It means that I have to block/chamerblock better than my opponent in order to win the duel. It means that I have to prove that I'm really better than my opponent rather than my weapon is simply longer(= more spammable, because people with longer weapons can start swinging earlier and, thus, they have 1-2 extra swings before his opponent comes in range where he can use his weapon).
3. I know how to use this sword better than any other type of sword because I've been practicing bastard sword fighting in Warband for so long. Still, on duel server I usually have 2 swords: a 1h sword and a bastard sword. If I fight someone with a 1h weapon, I use 1h sword. If I'm fighting with the guy who uses 2h weapon, I draw my bastard sword out.

And there were some weeks when everyone on DM duel server used 1h swords almost exclusively.

Honestly, I tried to measure relative speeds of a bastard sword vs a 1h sword (without turning into a swing) but I was unable to do this because my ping was constantly changing from ~100 to ~600. I'll post the results if only I get them.

PS I managed to measure time needed for a Swadian 1h sword and a bastard sword to make 50 overhead and side swings. In all cases I did not "turn into a swing". So, in all cases I needed 47.5-48.5 seconds to make 50 blows. As you can see, the difference in "pure" speeds is negligible (I still lagged a bit and made 1-2 side swings while doing overheads, so the error could be due to these factors). So, what's wrong with the bastard sword?

 

[Seawied86]

And all of your reasons for using the bastard sword will still be there with a slight speed reduction 

I'm not talking about making the weapon useless at all, but just be a little more on par with other 2h weapon speeds. At most, a 7 point speed reduction for the regular bastard sword, and a 6 point one for the heavy variety

 

[Berserker Pride]

That would be a bit much.  It would be slower than the two-handed sword then.  Frankly I wouldn't mind slight cost increase and a 1-2 speed reduction.  AND FIX THE KICKSLASH

 

[JoG]

And all of your reasons for using the bastard sword will still be there with a slight speed reduction 

I'm not talking about making the weapon useless at all, but just be a little more on par with other 2h weapon speeds. At most, a 7 point speed reduction for the regular bastard sword, and a 6 point one for the heavy variety

Frankly speaking I don't understand what you are talking about. The ingame bastard sword is basically a long one-handed sword (the length of 1h swords could be up to 1-1.05 m according to Oakeshott) with a grip suitable for using it with both hands. Why should it be slower than one-handed swords? You use twice as much power when you wield it.
What you suggest would make bastard sword inferior to 1h swords and axes. You have to be a good manual-blocker in order to use it since it's useless in a combination with a shield. It does not have the advantage in reach over 1h swords. It does not hold a damage advantage over 1h axes. Now it would be slower than those. Why?

 

[Vornne]

3 and 4 apply to a lot of other weapons, and I don't think 5 is valid. The current stab is nothing like the actual insta stab kills of previous versions - I've tested it a lot in the tutorial, and the sword does down to 0 damage up really close and at the edge of reach; which is borne out by my recent multi player experience. Since that means you have to use the middle of the animation to deal a reasonable amount of damage, there is no way you can instantly kill anyone with a stab; it's just a bit faster than the other swings which is fine with me.

Overall, I think bastard swords are OK as they are, though a small speed or damage reduction might not matter too much. Only the Swadians get it and I don't think they are currently too overpowering overall compared to other factions; it's almost their signature weapon along with the great lance, like Nords get great and throwing axes, Rhodoks get pikes and hammers, Vaegir get good archers, and so on.

 

[Seawied86]

That would be a bit much.  It would be slower than the two-handed sword then.  Frankly I wouldn't mind slight cost increase and a 1-2 speed reduction.  AND FIX THE KICKSLASH

I'll have to look at the numbers again. It should be just as fast or 1-2 points faster than the 2 handed sword.

 

[Attacksmurfen]

What the heck? People has to stop using duels to compare weapons to each other.
1 vs 1, the bamboo spear / the short spear are king/queen. Despite their low damage, they are fast with very good reach, so they can deny others from attacking. Still, they are crap on group melees = their low damage results on you getting backstabbed before killing an enemy and their reach makes you hit other friendlies, if FF is on and you'll bump into walls if indoors. So you need at least a shield and a secondary weapon with them.
The Bastards are more well balanced, excellent for duels and useful in group melees, but they are also more expensive.
They are crap against armour while a small 1-handed axe can still 1-hit kill even the best armour, if everything connects.

In group fighting, win factors are:
- High damage, 2nd; long range.

In duels it is:
- Speed, 2nd; high damage

Conclusion: While bastard swords are great for duelling, they are mediocre at other game modes.

 

[Binboy]

Actually as a bastard sword user, I think the bastard sword is quite a fine weapon indeed. I believe that the current bastard swords are very effective and cheap. The Heavy Bastard Sword I believe is no better then a regular Bastard Sword. (Slight increase in reach (Barely noticable) and slightly more damage with a large speed reduction of 4). Anyways with that aside, I think Bastard Swords should keep their speed, but have their damage reduced to atleast 28-30c their stabs can stay the same, heavy bastard swords can take the 35c instead. Remember Bastard Swords are cheaper then Arming Swords, but they're superior to arming swords to nearly every way except they can by wielded with shields better.

 

[Urist]

The bastard/heavy bastard sword is by far the best dueling weapon in this game.

The biggest difference to the spears is the stab. The spear stab uses the polearm animation
and can only be used on range. It is not that easy to land and takes skill.

The bastard sword stab is very fast and works being very close. It's very hard to block a facehug stab
from a bastard sword. Feining and moving like doing a swing and then suddenly switching to stab
is almost everytime a sure hit even against very good blockers when being close.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

4: "Kickslash" ability
5: Insta-stab

These sound like bugs to me, not so much bad balancing choices. The "kickslash" in my view was never intended to be in the game - kick is supposed to make distance, not subvert the delay after being blocked.