Lots of autoloot problems

[Karl XII]

That's a battle I fought and lost. At the moment I'm intrigued with how skills and bonuses are figured out. Personally, I'd prefer ALL bonuses work like the plus used for party skills. Looking at how things are totaled up, it looks like some are and some aren't.

As for item valuation, lotsa issues. Fixable, but it requires someone with OCD issues rivaling my own to go in and change some stuff by hand I think.

 

[mikemayday]

Windyplains, are you interested in continuous reports of really weird autoloot choices, or is this enough for now?

 

[Windyplains]

Windyplains, are you interested in continuous reports of really weird autoloot choices, or is this enough for now?

That depends on the definition of weird.  There's a lot of comparison that goes on in how the autoloot system's rating is built and I'd suspect often exceeds how carefully most players even look at one item vs. another.  Some of the rating weights are opinion based (my own with a lot of feedback from very early users of the mod).  What I may need to do is give you all more tools on understanding how the system is working like a mod option to turn on the autoloot system's debugging messages yourselves to get an idea of why items get rated as they do.  In the meantime I'll try to explain what an item's autoloot rating means and how it is designed below.

The first concept folks would need to understand is how the autoloot rating system is designed and what makes it different from other autoloot systems currently out there.  Most run on direct comparisons.  So 32c > 30p for damage in those systems which is clearly not true in gameplay.  Most other setups also run on simple comparisons.  Damage for weapons, armor for armor.  The direction I went was to compare every aspect of a weapon type to reference baseline values and then use that comparison as part of the rating.  This solved the problem of how to compare different aspects of data that are all in different scales where a change in 5 damage on a weapon is much better than 5 speed.  For example, the baseline value for body armor is 30.  This means that any body armor with 30 armor receives a 100% of baseline rating (+100 rating).  Something with 15 armor would receive +50 (50% of baseline) while plate armor at 60 would receive +200 rating (200% of baseline).  Each aspect of a weapon is then simply added together.

Spoiler: Example: Fictional Shield Autoloot Rating Breakdown

Shield (Health 400, Resist 19, Width 100, Height 75)
Health = 400 * 100 / (Baseline 220) = 181.8% of baseline = +182 rating.
Resist = 19 * 100 / (Baseline 15) = 126.7% of baseline = +127 rating.
Width = 100 * 100 / (Baseline 75) = 133.3% of baseline = +133 rating.
Height = 75 * 100 / (Baseline 75) = 100% of baseline = +100 rating.
Total = 182 (health) + 127 (resist) + 133 (width) + 100 (height) = 542 autoloot rating

Spoiler: Data: Item Baseline Values

# MOUNTS
MOUNT_BASELINE_HEALTH                  = 140
MOUNT_BASELINE_SPEED                  = 40
MOUNT_BASELINE_MANEUVER                = 40
MOUNT_BASELINE_ARMOR                  = 25

# SHIELDS
SHIELD_BASELINE_HEALTH                = 220
SHIELD_BASELINE_RESIST                = 15
SHIELD_BASELINE_WIDTH                  = 75
SHIELD_BASELINE_HEIGHT                = 75

# ARMOR
ARMOR_BASELINE_HEAD                    = 25
ARMOR_BASELINE_BODY                    = 30
ARMOR_BASELINE_LEGS                    = 15

# AMMUNITION
AMMO_BASELINE_DAMAGE                  = 1
AMMO_BASELINE_AMMO                    = 30

# RANGED WEAPONS
RANGED_BASELINE_DAMAGE                = 20
RANGED_BASELINE_ACCURACY              = 100
RANGED_BASELINE_SPEED                  = 95

# MELEE WEAPONS
MELEE_BASELINE_DAMAGE                  = 25
MELEE_BASELINE_REACH                  = 100
MELEE_BASELINE_SPEED                  = 95

A few of the concerns I have for what folks see include:

• As mentioned earlier in the thread some of the oddities are companions suffering from encumbrance penalties preventing them from meeting the requirements for an item they are currently using then then that item's rating value is automatically cut in half which means they'll definitely upgrade to a weaker item that they can use.
• If you have "retain heraldic equipment" checked on then anything that is heraldic is automatically boosted in rating well above anything non-heraldic.  The option to switch will show up in the upgrade screen, but it won't be checked (thus won't upgrade).
• If you're currently using an item that does not match your settings.  Like you're wielding a two-handed sword, but want a one-handed sword in weapon slot 1 then any one-handed sword will beat out that two-handed one regardless of individual ratings because it is what you've asked for.  For example, this includes tossing out a crossbow that can't being used on horseback for one that can if you've selected "crossbow (mounted)".
• Mounts: Speed, Maneuver, Armor & Health are all considered.  Best Overall Mount - considers all 4 factors equally.  Find Fastest Mount - Doubles the rating contributions for Speed & Maneuvering.  Find Most Resilient Mount - doubles the rating contributions for Armor & Health.
• Melee Weapons: Damage, Reach (length), Speed & Damage Type are all considered.
  • Pierce (+125) > Blunt (+100) > Cut (+75).
  • Special Modifiers: Can Knock Down (+25), Unbalanced (-25), Crush Through (+25), Couchable (+40), Can Penetrate Shield (+40), Bonus Against Shield (+25), Penalty With Shield (-25)
• Ranged Weapons: Damage, Accuracy, Speed & Damage Type are considered.  Reload speed is ignored.  Accuracy is set to (+100) if there is no accuracy value to effectively remove it from comparison since all items would then be 100.  Many ranged weapons are natively 100.

Disclaimer: I hope this helps folks understand a little more of what is going on under the hood of the system.  It is however, being written following a rather long night shift at work so I apologize for any incoherency contained within.

 

[Theo H]

Interesting info

 

[mikemayday]

Yeah, I was aware of all that stuff being taken into consideration when I posted this thread, except for the problem with skill requirements, of which I am aware now.

In the future, are you planning to use the final skill value when determining if an NPC can even use an item/mount? Or is it going to stay as it is now, where you can use a high-skill mount while encumbered, but you become much slower?

In any case, I meant problems like people wanting to use items that are worse in every way you've taken into account. I'll also take a look at the axe problem, but so far it appears they'll take a fighting axe over anything else.

 

[Karl XII]

Thanks for the outline on how it works. Still a little strangeness observed (not upgrading leather gloves, preferring hardened leather gloves to superior mittens or gauntlets, etc.), and my quibbles with shields seem more game mechanics related (some SCA experience and a lot of historical research makes how shields work look a bit questionable to me), but I get more of a grasp now of what's happening.

Again, thanks.

 

[Shoobs]

I would like more Light Mail and Plate or whatever its called.  Those things are awesome for archers.

 

[mikemayday]

So I did the math with the weapons and it checks out- according to the system, a Chipped One Handed Axe is a better weapon than an Elite Scimitar.

Now, I'm no expert to the game, so if you guys can confirm this- I guess I'll stick to deferring to the system's judgement.

 

[Windyplains]

So I did the math with the weapons and it checks out- according to the system, a Chipped One Handed Axe is a better weapon than an Elite Scimitar.

Now, I'm no expert to the game, so if you guys can confirm this- I guess I'll stick to deferring to the system's judgement.

Elite Scimitar (411 rating; 69% rating item)
32c, 100 speed, 103 reach, No Special Properties
Damage Type: 75 (cutting)
Damage: 128
Speed: 105
Reach: 103

Chipped One-handed Axe (410 rating) (Base Rating is 402; 63% rated item)
34c, 98 speed, 71 reach, Bonus vs. Shields
Damage Type: 75 (cutting)
Damage: 136
Speed: 103
Reach: 71
Bonus vs. Shields: 25
IMOD - Chipped: +2 damage (should be -1, but seems to give +2 in truth)

Unless your base stat values are different than mine (we have tweaked a number for v0.21) I would have expected the scimitar to win this match-up.  Either that or my math is off.  The use of "elite" is misleading here and should be removed.

 

[mikemayday]

Well, a one point difference then Might have been some other, similar scimitar.

Looks like range is the only problem here, does it matter for the NPCs even? I know I have quite a few problems hitting with a 70 compared to a 100.

 

[mikemayday]

Hey there! Back with some questions:

1. Since I've been fighting quite some sea riders lately... a comparison:

KITE SHIELD: hp 480 wght 2.5 res 1 size 180 spd 82
THICK HUSCARL'S ROUND SHIELD: hp 457 wght 4.5 res 21 size 100 spd 81

The Kite shield (while worth one thousand gold less) is rated higher.
The first problem is the Kite Shield's nominal size- despite being a much smaller model than a Board Shield, it has an insanely high size rating (180 vs 85x143 !!!)
The second is that I feel the hp rating is meaningless all by itself- you need to measure it against the shield's resistance. 200 hp 20 resistance is MUCH better than 400hp 1 resistance. And yet, all the res 1 shields are the highest rated in the game (Kite shield, Thick Fur shield etc.)


2.After a war with the Rodocks and trusting the autoloot system, my whole party has Military Hammers as their main weapon. This is kinda weird, considering blunt weapons were supposed to be weaker in exchange for their ability of knocking out instead of killing. And it's a little wee bit boring

3.Price. What's kinda weird here, is that some of the best weapons are also the cheapest. A fighting axe (worth 77 gold), is one of the best one-handed weapons- rated higher than a Long Arming Sword, which is worth seven times as much!

4.Despite two scavengers and a party Looting skill of 7, I never get any mail shirts from fighting the Sea Riders, just Byrnie Chains. Is there something amiss?

 

[Theo H]

Hey there! Back with some questions:

1. Since I've been fighting quite some sea riders lately... a comparison:

KITE SHIELD: hp 480 wght 2.5 res 1 size 180 spd 82
THICK HUSCARL'S ROUND SHIELD: hp 457 wght 4.5 res 21 size 100 spd 81

The Kite shield (while worth one thousand gold less) is rated higher.
The first problem is the Kite Shield's nominal size- despite being a much smaller model than a Board Shield, it has an insanely high size rating (180 vs 85x143 !!!)
The second is that I feel the hp rating is meaningless all by itself- you need to measure it against the shield's resistance. 200 hp 20 resistance is MUCH better than 400hp 1 resistance. And yet, all the res 1 shields are the highest rated in the game (Kite shield, Thick Fur shield etc.)


2.After a war with the Rodocks and trusting the autoloot system, my whole party has Military Hammers as their main weapon. This is kinda weird, considering blunt weapons were supposed to be weaker in exchange for their ability of knocking out instead of killing. And it's a little wee bit boring

3.Price. What's kinda weird here, is that some of the best weapons are also the cheapest. A fighting axe (worth 77 gold), is one of the best one-handed weapons- rated higher than a Long Arming Sword, which is worth seven times as much!

4.Despite two scavengers and a party Looting skill of 7, I never get any mail shirts from fighting the Sea Riders, just Byrnie Chains. Is there something amiss?

Military hammers are one of the best one handers in silverstag.

 

[mikemayday]

Ok then, that explains much
Out of curiosity, were they so in Native?

 

[UniversalWolf]

FWIW I've never used the auto-loot system for companion equipment, and I probably never will.  I don't mind the micromanagement of doling out equipment to my followers (especially since so many other things are automated in Silverstag), and unless I can trust the auto-looting 100% to grab the items I want, I won't use it.  This is partially because I don't go exclusively by raw stats, but also by subjective aesthetic valuation.  Some armors and weapons simply look cooler than others, and I'm willing to sacrifice a point or two here and there for stylish followers.

 

[Theo H]

Ok then, that explains much
Out of curiosity, were they so in Native?

Yep, its one the Rhodoks infantry and crossbows kicked serious ass. Plenty of blunt and pierce weapons they use.