Information about developments at snowballing problem

[Kristjan108]

Unfortunately knowing the problems does not mean they will be 100% fixed. I am trying to underline this problem for long time (started 2-3 years ago) however situation is still same. So I cannot give you a guarentee for fix. For any problem, (1) possible solutions need to be found and (2) these solutions need to be approved then (3) lastly they need to be applied. However step-2 is a bit hard to pass here.

For example currently a new feature rebellions is added to game. According to design after a rebellion occur a new clan is added to game. Yesterday I made a new test run and collect datas to see if everything is ok after rebellions is implemented and see that total clan count increases 1.5x in first 20 years so lord party counts too (actually lord party count become 2x more than clan count increase because all clans also tier up and spawn more parties by time). I prepaired charts / graphs / data tables and reported problem. Offered 2 different solutions for fixing this problem (npc clans to tier up 50% slower (yes it is a cheat not perfect solution but we need to slow down tier up process for npc clans to lower number of parties at late game, fast tiering up of npc clans is not important thing for gameplay it is only important for player to feel progress) & rebel clans to be removed from game if they cannot hold their initial settlements (most cannot hold)). These 2 solutions were solving problem mostly without damaging other mechanics. However they are not accepted and no new solution is offered yet. So this problem is left in game. So currently number of clans / lord parties at game consequently increases after rebellion feature. All efforts done previously for balancing game is damaged with this addition because now we have 2x party on map at late game (20-30 years after starting) it was 1.3x previously (from tier ups). So settlement per clan decreases by half by time, this decreases tax income average per clan, this increases ratio of poor lords so parties start to recruit less people to their parties, when all lords are poor and has less men they stop wars and all world go into peace. Also because of income decrease kingdoms stopped hiring mercenies at late game. As summary lots of balance and game mechanic get hurt after one new feature.

I am trying to give an example. As a dev we are not in so different situation with players. You play the game and see problems and you offer different solutions to your valid problems and when you see there is no development about your problem for long time you can feel that your possible solutions are not cared. However it is similar for us too and knowing the problem sometimes does not mean it will be fixed. We prepare tables offer solutions and sometimes nothing is done.

Spoiler: Data table after rebellions

Spoiler: Party Count At Map After Rebellions

Sounds like the best fix to this would be some sort of soft cap for clans in a kingdom (based on amount of fiefs) after which the AI would start considering expelling landless clans.
After that you could make those clans into mercenary clans and remove them from the game if they fail to keep themselves afloat as mercenaries or have other kingdoms take them in if they need more clans.

 

[mexxico]

Sounds like the best fix to this would be some sort of soft cap for clans in a kingdom (based on amount of fiefs) after which the AI would start considering expelling landless clans.
After that you could make those clans into mercenary clans and remove them from the game if they fail to keep themselves afloat as mercenaries or have other kingdoms take them in if they need more clans.

Problem with this solution is this will expel landless clans of weak kingdoms which will make snowballing worse. Currently about 30% of clans be landless after first 5-10 years and if we start removing them this will result in weak factions to lose strength and this will result in lose more lands and then more clans, a cycle... So after losing 2-3 fiefs at game’s initial years mostly that kingdom will continue getting weaker and weaker by time. For the health of gameplay we should create ways for come backs of weakened kingdoms we should not to make it harder.

However still this is one optional solution but I am not fan of it. Maybe it can be final decision (because this is offered too). Then things will be worse for snowballing again. Anyway still can be better than doing nothing about this problem. Because party / clan inflation will be really big problem for late game if not fixed somehow (after rebellion feature).

 

[Pejot]

Maybe add them to bandit faction and enable killing them without repercussions.

 

[Flesson19]

Problem with this solution is this will expel landless clans of weak kingdoms which will make snowballing worse. Currently about 30% of clans be landless after first 5-10 years and if we start removing them this will result in weak factions to lose strength and this will result in lose more lands and then more clans, a cycle... So after losing 2-3 fiefs at game’s initial years mostly that kingdom will continue getting weaker and weaker by time. For the health of gameplay we should create ways for come backs of weakened kingdoms we should not to make it harder.

However still this is one optional solution but I am not fan of it. Maybe it can be final decision (because this is offered too). Then things will be worse for snowballing again. Anyway still can be better than doing nothing about this problem. Because party / clan inflation is really big problem currently (after rebellion feature).

not sure if addressed in 1.5.6 but clan members are still running out of money which means cant get troops and sit with no troops with can contribute to it, i bet in a lower manner but can still contribute to it, just a small thing I noticed, also left you one quick question I hope you can answer for me in conversation, dont need a long explanation just a number and if my theory is right, thanxs

 

[mexxico]

Maybe add them to bandit faction and enable killing them without repercussions.

I think we can just stop respawning their lords if they lost / cannot keep their initial settlement (during rebellion they get one settlement) and other kingdoms should not recruit them without fief. I offered this solution I do not see any reason to not apply this. So after last lord party is captured by enemies they will be totally eliminated. If they could keep their settlement for a reasonable time they can be hired by another kingdom with their settlement or they can continue capturing new settlements.

not sure if addressed in 1.5.6 but clan members are still running out of money which means cant get troops and sit with no troops with can contribute to it, i bet in a lower manner but can still contribute to it, just a small thing I noticed, also left you one quick question I hope you can answer for me in conversation, dont need a long explanation just a number and if my theory is right, thanxs

These snowballing fixes consist of several developments for financial situation of clans. So yes it was fixed (see data tables I shared and look poor clan counts after developments, it was reduced to 5%s) however after rebellion feature in late game we have tons of poor clans again because average settlement (income) per clan decreases by time because of clan inflation.

 

[Vesper_]

I think rebellions like in mod "Separatism" on nexus would fit better than creating new clans, this will solve part of the problem if not whole problem, just make lords founding their own kingdoms instead giving them to new generated clans.

 

[Pejot]

I think rebellions like in mod "Separatism" on nexus would fit better than creating new clans, this will solve part of the problem if not whole problem, just make lords founding their own kingdoms instead giving them to new generated clans.

It's not the same situation. This mechanic is about settlements rebelling against their lord and kingdom not lords rebelling against kingdom. Those Ned someone to lead them and it cannot be any existing leader.

 

[AJAJP_Juan]

I think we can just stop respawning their lords if they lost / cannot keep their initial settlement (during rebellion they get one settlement) and other kingdoms should not recruit them without fief. I offered this solution I do not see any reason to not apply this. So after last lord party is captured by enemies they will be totally eliminated. If they could keep their settlement for a reasonable time they can be hired by another kingdom with their settlement or they can continue capturing new settlements.

I like this one. Rebellions clans shouldn't be a full new clan, but something to stir things up. Once they are dealt with, they should dissolve as they fulfilled their task. If loyalty decreases again a new clan will be generated, and the cycle continues without damaging the long term of parties in map, at least that's how I see it on paper.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I think we can just stop respawning their lords if they lost / cannot keep their initial settlement (during rebellion they get one settlement) and other kingdoms should not recruit them without fief. I offered this solution I do not see any reason to not apply this. So after last lord party is captured by enemies they will be totally eliminated. If they could keep their settlement for a reasonable time they can be hired by another kingdom with their settlement or they can continue capturing new settlements.

This is clearly the most obvious and best gameplay feeling option. "lords" who rebel should be automatically "executed" (no penatly of course) if they fail. That's what happens to rebels in history when they fail.

Clans don't die off now since kids activate so really we don't need more clans, it was a problem when they would die out because of old age but not anymore.

As side question, are these new clans basically like player independent clans, not their own faction that we could join?

 

[mexxico]

As side question, are these new clans basically like player independent clans, not their own faction that we could join?

I think player cannot join them and they are not a new kingdom. They will join one of 8 kingdoms (which is enemy of rebel clan’s enemy) if they can hold settlement for a reasonable time aganist the kingdom they revolved.

 

[Kristjan108]

Problem with this solution is this will expel landless clans of weak kingdoms which will make snowballing worse. Currently about 30% of clans be landless after first 5-10 years and if we start removing them this will result in weak factions to lose strength and this will result in lose more lands and then more clans, a cycle... So after losing 2-3 fiefs at game’s initial years mostly that kingdom will continue getting weaker and weaker by time. For the health of gameplay we should create ways for come backs of weakened kingdoms we should not to make it harder.

However still this is one optional solution but I am not fan of it. Maybe it can be final decision (because this is offered too). Then things will be worse for snowballing again. Anyway still can be better than doing nothing about this problem. Because party / clan inflation will be really big problem for late game if not fixed somehow (after rebellion feature).

That's true, but there still needs to be a way for kingdoms to get rid of unnecessary clans, so maybe make it so that they start considering expelling clans only when they start losing too much money keeping them around? So they will keep extra clans around as long as they have enough money to share with those clans, but start expelling them once their own wealth starts to run out.

I think we can just stop respawning their lords if they lost / cannot keep their initial settlement (during rebellion they get one settlement) and other kingdoms should not recruit them without fief. I offered this solution I do not see any reason to not apply this. So after last lord party is captured by enemies they will be totally eliminated. If they could keep their settlement for a reasonable time they can be hired by another kingdom with their settlement or they can continue capturing new settlements.

That's a good fix.
It would also be interesting if the old kingdom could reconcile with the rebels by giving some concessions if said kingdom is in a really bad situation and can neither spare an army to crush them or afford to lose the settlement.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

One question, what are the triggers for which an act of rebellion occurs?

…
Agree with the solution of a defeated rebel lord were the execution (with no penalty).

 

[scarface52]

Can lords die in simulated battles in the development branch? That sounds like a thing that can have an important effect on balance.

 

[Andrei[beast]]

If there are many options for the rebellion feature couldn't you guys post a poll and let the community decide what option they want and describing the informations and outcomes of said option?
@mexxico

 

[Blood Gryphon]

One question, what are the triggers for which an act of rebellion occurs?

…
Agree with the solution of a defeated rebel lord were the execution (with no penalty).

Low security and loyalty I believe, hence the major changes there. Sounds like it will impact those border towns the most, RIP khuzait

 

[mexxico]

One question, what are the triggers for which an act of rebellion occurs?

…
Agree with the solution of a defeated rebel lord were the execution (with no penalty).

Low loyality is major reason. I did not implemented that feature have less information about details.

Can lords die in simulated battles in the development branch? That sounds like a thing that can have an important effect on balance.

Yes but each clan has several heroes ready for spawning a party. So if a clan is tier-3 they have nearly always have 2 parties on map. So death of a lord usually does not decrease lord party count unless all 18+ heroes of that clan is dead.

Agree with the solution of a defeated rebel lord were the execution (with no penalty).

It is similar with one of two solutions I offered. Its ok for me. We can stop respawning them or executing can be without penalty so npc lords also execute them when they win a battle aganist them.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

I like this one. Rebellions clans shouldn't be a full new clan, but something to stir things up. Once they are dealt with, they should dissolve as they fulfilled their task. If loyalty decreases again a new clan will be generated, and the cycle continues without damaging the long term of parties in map, at least that's how I see it on paper.

That also leaves room for quests from the faction leader or the "marshal" of the kingdom

Hey, we got a quest for you (player).This town (x) rebelled some days or weeks ago and we need you to help squash the rebellion. Either bring me the rebellion leader alive for more money so I can whip his ass, or his head only for less money. The choice is yours.

That would be dope af.

 

[Pejot]

I think we can just stop respawning their lords if they lost / cannot keep their initial settlement (during rebellion they get one settlement) and other kingdoms should not recruit them without fief. I offered this solution I do not see any reason to not apply this. So after last lord party is captured by enemies they will be totally eliminated. If they could keep their settlement for a reasonable time they can be hired by another kingdom with their settlement or they can continue capturing new settlements.

This still won't stop growing number of clans without fief. They will keep the settlement and join another kingdom as new clan while previous owner will be without fief. In my opinion they should return to default culture faction and dissapear. In case they rebel against original settlement culture they should keep being rebels until someone destroys them.

P. S
In case the faction of origin to the settlement is already destroyed they should revive the faction.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

It is similar with one of two solutions I offered. Its ok for me. We can stop respawning them or executing can be without penalty so npc lords also execute them when they win a battle aganist them.

I think this is desirable, as we would actually be able to execute "lords" without turning into everyones enemy. Otherwise you don't execute a single soul like me.

Also im curious, do towns that rebelled and finally join a kingdom end up rebelling again but against the newly joined kingdom (or is that very unlikely to happen)? I would imagine its a high rate as those cities that rebel would have started with low loyalty and security. Or is there some kind of massive bonus to loyalty if the town successfully rebels? I am just imagining a situation where a town just keeps rebelling over and over.

Maybe what needs to happen is less rebellions, so that the rate of new lords is significantly reduced.

 

[Anushtegin]

I think rebellions like in mod "Separatism" on nexus would fit better than creating new clans, this will solve part of the problem if not whole problem, just make lords founding their own kingdoms instead giving them to new generated clans.

yes, how am i goign to create the khergit khanate? also, if existign clans never revolt and challenge the rulign clan, is it still necessary that vlandia has more clans than any other faction? i would really like to see succession wars....