FOR TALEWORLDS: HOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO COMBINE THE OLD SYSTEM OF PURCHASING EQUIPMENT AND PERK SYSTEM IN THE MULTIPLAYER?

[Gerrodot]

I'm sorry for my English

1. Foreword

So, at one time since the announcement of the class system in multiplayer, many swords were broken among our community in disputes and dissatisfaction with this system.

At first I didn’t pay attention to this system and played with it for many months, but in comparison with the old system I have to admit that it turned out to be unsuccessful in the long run.


2. Why is the class system not successful?

I will not scatter words here, when the class system in multiplayer was presented to us, the developers argued that the class system would avoid a snowball and also provide more arcade gameplay, and so on.

However, I believe that the developers went a little in the wrong direction - they took the gameplay aspect too literally (TOO), but completely forgot about the psychological aspect of the pleasure of playing with the equipment system, (there is no need to laugh or mock the developers because of this - this happens), CS with the same system is not just so popular, you yourself know about the advantages of this system.

The old system offered a flexible system for buying weapons - you clearly felt progress, there was a lot of equipment, the new system was very dry, and the snowball was, firstly, weakly expressed and the losing side with weaker equipment was visible, and secondly it motivated to play better to cash in on good gear and in the end it was fun.


3. What to do?

The old equipment system may need to be returned in some altered form, but I AM STRONGLY opposed to removing the perk system, on the contrary, I believe that in combination with the old old system with equipment, it can only develop and improve this system to obtain a hybrid system, which, if successfully implemented, will enrich the multiplayer.


4. How can the system of perks and classes be reconciled with the old system?

I thought for a very long time how it was possible to combine both systems, I think people here have much more imagination than me, but one idea came to me while playing a single.

As you know in the single equipment - weapons, armor, horses have different levels of quality, for example, worn, graceful, and so on.

I think you can bind the purchased equipment and also buy 2-3 perks for dinars for dinars - for example, you buy regular armor - by buying the same perk you get armor with slightly better characteristics - the armor becomes, for example, Exquisite. You can also bind some perks to the amount of equipment (for example, arrows).

And so on, how do you like the idea and what are your suggestions?



I hope TW to read this topic.

Gentlemen, please be polite.

 

[Younes]

Taleworlds refuses to find a compromise for the class system.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Taleworlds refuses to find a compromise for the class system.

^^
Well, hybrid system has been mentioned (by me and others/ no by Taleworlds) for a long time ?

edit

 

[Ereinion]

The old class system will never be implemented because there no damage localization in multiplayer, so your armor is just a number for all your body.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

^^
Well, hybrid system has been mentioned for a long time ?

Indeed it seems very likely 1.50 (or whatever) will be moving towards some sort of compromise. I hope the community who want the warband system back are also willing to compromise a little though.. this is the bit I find unlikely...

 

[Younes]

press x to doubt

 

[Sub0WInters]

There is a button on your keyboard called "CAPS". This stands for capital locks. Essentially it makes every letter you type in the capital form. I think you accidentally clicked it when typing the title.

 

[Younes]

Indeed it seems very likely 1.50 (or whatever) will be moving towards some sort of compromise. I hope the community who want the warband system back are also willing to compromise a little though.. this is the bit I find unlikely...

Where do you have this from?

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Indeed it seems very likely 1.50 (or whatever) will be moving towards some sort of compromise. I hope the community who want the warband system back are also willing to compromise a little though.. this is the bit I find unlikely...

By hybrid system I mean a coexistence between custom loadout system and class system distributed in the different modes. For example class system for skirmish and custom system for the rest.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

By hybrid system I mean a coexistence between custom loadout system and class system distributed in the different modes. For example class system for skirmish and custom system for the rest.

That's not a hybrid though; that's just two systems. Which would then need to be maintained separately. I don't think this is a realistic expectation. I think a more realistic expectation is the class system to work differently between captains / skirmish. With their being captains mode only perks and skirmish / tdm / whatever mode only perks.

My thoughts on a hybrid would just be adding more perk slots and adding more depth / options. The free-form system is not returning and to be fair it doesn't need to. I know some die-hards will resent that but the class system itself is fine. The issue is class diversity, the perk options, perk quantity. balancing and arrangement are not working as intended.

Again though I think this is semantics. The issues with the MP are due to combat parametres, limited game modes and server stability. Again I know some people will really want to put the blame all on the class system but it really means nothing compared to these big three.

Though I am open to people disagreeing with me as I'm sure they rightfully and respectively will.

 

[Younes]

That's not a hybrid though; that's just two systems. Which would then need to be maintained separately. I don't think this is a realistic expectation. I think a more realistic expectation is the class system to work differently between captains / skirmish. With their being captains mode only perks and skirmish / tdm / whatever mode only perks.

My thoughts on a hybrid would just be adding more perk slots and adding more depth / options. The free-form system is not returning and to be fair it doesn't need to. I know some die-hards will resent that but the class system itself is fine. The issue is class diversity, the perk options, perk quantity. balancing and arrangement are not working as intended.

Again though I think this is semantics. The issues with the MP are due to combat parametres, limited game modes and server stability. Again I know some people will really want to put the blame all on the class system but it really means nothing compared to these big three.

Though I am open to people disagreeing with me as I'm sure they rightfully and respectively will.

You completely missed the point of the perk system. The perk system is at its base the same as warband. If you were to give classes an unlimited amount of perks to choose from, enough perks slots for each piece of the body, and all the weapons and armors you can think of, it would be almost identical class system to warband.

The more perks you add, the closer you get to warband's class system. The system is not innovative in any way. It's just a thumbed down version of warband class system.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

You completely missed the point of the perk system. The perk system is at its base the same as warband. If you were to give classes an unlimited amount of perks to choose from, enough perks slots for each piece of the body, and all the weapons and armors you can think of, it would be almost identical class system to warband.

The more perks you add, the closer you get to warband's class system. The system is not innovative in any way. It's just a thumbed down version of warband class system.

Ahh but this is the point isn't it. One mans dumbed down is another mans streamlined. By your own logic then if more perks were added and more perk slots we would happily move towards you being okay with the iteration of the class system?

This is the direction we are moving.. I don't think it will ever be as diverse as warband... but warband was if anything a bit too much... there was a significant amount of redundancy in most factions rosters.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Maybe hybrid isn't the right word, I'll buy it. A coexistence system then.

 

[Younes]

Ahh but this is the point isn't it. One mans dumbed down is another mans streamlined. By your own logic then if more perks were added and more perk slots we would happily move towards you being okay with the iteration of the class system?

This is the direction we are moving.. I don't think it will ever be as diverse as warband... but warband was if anything a bit too much... there was a significant amount of redundancy in most factions rosters.

No because the UI with the current perk system isn't intuitive. When i used to pick an axe in warband UI at least i would actually be able to see that it's an axe because the picture of the actual axe was there. The icons for the perk system are not intuitive.

Also NIN said a while ago there there would only be 3 perk slots so no. We're not moving to a system more diverse then warband. I agree on some weapons having some redundancy, but it didn't actually make the class system worse, it gave people a choice to pick an axe even if it was weaker then its "best" counterpart like not picking the great long axe because it's too expensive, but instead taking a weapon slightly less expensive and with the stats changed according to the price.


There are 0 hints of the class system moving to a more diverse and deep system

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Maybe hybrid isn't the right word, I'll buy it. A co-ed system then.

Yeah I mean that REALLY is semantics on my part but co-ed is more appropriate.

I think the vision I have which I believe TW also have is the following;

All meaningful decisions from the Warband system will be carried across into the bannerlord perk system.

All insignificant decisions from the warband system (helmets that give +1/-1 armour, gloves, minor weapon changes) will be removed and replace by cosmetic options. (skins).

So effectively in this system the changes that matter are clearer and easier to pick and the changes that don't matter do not adversely effect a players effectiveness simply for cosmetic reasons. I think thats the theory anyway... I can't suggest it is working as expected right now but that's probably the ideal.

 

[Younes]

Yeah I mean that REALLY is semantics on my part but co-ed is more appropriate.

I think the vision I have which I believe TW also have is the following;

All meaningful decisions from the Warband system will be carried across into the bannerlord perk system.

All insignificant decisions from the warband system (helmets that give +1/-1 armour, gloves, minor weapon changes) will be removed and replace by cosmetic options. (skins).

So effectively in this system the changes that matter are clearer and easier to pick and the changes that don't matter do not adversely effect a players effectiveness simply for cosmetic reasons. I think thats the theory anyway... I can't suggest it is working as expected right now but that's probably the ideal.

That doesn't make sense because skins will be supposedly behind a progression system. That i seriously doubt will take into account people in custom servers (where most people will go) and will only apply to the queue.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Yeah I mean that REALLY is semantics on my part but co-ed is more appropriate.

I think the vision I have which I believe TW also have is the following;

All meaningful decisions from the Warband system will be carried across into the bannerlord perk system.

All insignificant decisions from the warband system (helmets that give +1/-1 armour, gloves, minor weapon changes) will be removed and replace by cosmetic options. (skins).

So effectively in this system the changes that matter are clearer and easier to pick and the changes that don't matter do not adversely effect a players effectiveness simply for cosmetic reasons. I think thats the theory anyway... I can't suggest it is working as expected right now but that's probably the ideal.

I sweated for the right word and co-ed wasn't . A question of semantics, it seems (spanish macho, tu sabes ).

I have already commented on several occasions, the class system works well for skirmish and captain mode, but for the rest of the modes I would bring back the custom system (nowadats custmization is a MUST standard in the multiplayer scenario of any game).

As Younes says, the third perk will not bring much more and that clearly is an involution from previous titles.

However, as you say, the adjustment of parameters, optimization, stability of servers ... all of this would be above the class system in the scale of "things to fix".

 

[AxiosXiphos]

That doesn't make sense because skins will be supposedly behind a progression system. That i seriously doubt will take into account people in custom servers (where most people will go) and will only apply to the queue.

No reason they can't apply to custom servers as well. It would only be servers running different modules which would cause issues. (and by issues I mean they just wouldn't use them).

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Now I was reading Callum's thread about the class system and I read a comment from @Marko͘ (link) that mentioned a hybrid system taking elements from Star Wars: Bear Force, Rome at War , the Deluge, Vikingr.

What do you think about that?

 

[Marko͘]

That video was made at least a year prior to the 'new' hybrid class system I was talking about. As you can see in the video, every slot can pick everything so it's just the basic Native one. I don't really have footage at hand of how the newer hybrid system works but it's described below.

I am going to quote my post from the beta board back in September 2019, about a proposed compromise for a hybrid class system:

In essence it locks each of the four weapon slots to specific equipment or types of equipment. The system(identical or similar) is used in Deluge, Rome at War, Vikingr and Bear Force.

e.g. in Bear Force the slots go something like:

First slot - Primary weapon. Rifles, machine guns, carbines and similar weapons.
Secondary slot - Secondary equipment like pistol, shield, sword.
Third slot - Utility equipment like binoculars, grenades, smoke grenades, C4, medical equipment.
Fourth slot - Reserved for ammo.

Sometimes the slots have overlapping gear choice so you can further focus on what your own battlefield role is.

I don't remember exactly how it goes in the other mods but for instance you can only take throwing weapons in one of the slots, shields in one of the slots etc.

It's a really neat system, I like it a lot. However I would not be very optimistic about any beneficial changes coming to Bannerlord's equipment selection since the 28 pages of class discussion on that thread were mostly half baked attempts to defend the new system from the devs as well as some false(debunked) statistics being thrown out.