Clarification on Captain's perks for dismounted cavalry

[SomeWeirdSins]

Which captains perks apply to dismounted cavalry when fighting as 'infantry' troops?


Examples: 25 1h Basher perk says "Infantry Troops..."
25 ath morning exercise perk says "Foot troops"
150 riding mounted warrior says "melee cavalry"

It'd be nice to know for building my troops/captains out how these perks interact with dismounted cav, but I can't find this information anywhere.

 

[BigFat]

Good question, some of the perks are not worded in the nicest way. If I had to guess, I would say
Infantry Troops- melee foot troops
Foot troops- foot soldiers in general (melee and archers)
Melee cavalry- self explanatory
For that melee cav perk, I assume it just counts for whoever is in that captain's formation whether they are dismounted or not as long as the game categorizes them as melee cav but I could be wrong.
Bless the people who will come test this for you, because seeing if a troop does 2% damage more or not must be irritating.

 

[Takazul]

Infantry Troops- melee foot troops

We know this isn't true because the Forest Kin scouting perk counts Archers as "Infantry." I would imagine that dismounted cav counts as their respective infantry. I think this is still true: when you select their formation, I believe any dismounted units show the sword (melee infantry) versus sword pony. If that is true, it seems like the game auto-recognizes they aren't cavalry anymore.

 

[snuggans]

We know this isn't true because the Forest Kin scouting perk counts Archers as "Infantry."

ive read two posts that claimed otherwise, could someone test this? i dont have the perk in my game

 

[Madeloc]

ive read two posts that claimed otherwise, could someone test this? i dont have the perk in my game

Literally saying, i.e., for people who are comfortable with their language (and maybe others), and etymologically, basicaly :

INFANTRY = walking
Then the infantry category can be separated into ranged / melee

If language is well used, there is no doubt to have about this. All that uses their feet to move, are infantry

 

[Takazul]

ive read two posts that claimed otherwise, could someone test this? i dont have the perk in my game

I only have personal experience but it’s always worked for me. I specifically do a 50/30/20% (meele inf./arch/mixed cav.) army comp for the sole purpose of getting the forest kin perk. I also saw someone say archers didn’t count so I’ve intentionally checked forest penalty before and after perk—they do, every time.

 

[BigFat]

This is why I said the game can be misleading with it's terms. Things like that perk saying "infantry" but working with archers when the game itself categorizes them as being different things from ranged.

So in that perks case, "Infantry" would be both infantry AND ranged. Then the game uses the term "Foot Troops" which implies it would work the same way but then why give it a different term? They really need to go through and make things more clear. All that to see which unit gets your 2% buff lol

 

[azakhi]

Hello, these are what I could find from game code:

• Basher: Works with any unit that is in shield wall formation if the weapon used for attack (attackers weapon) is a melee weapon.
• Morning Exercise: Any unit that is on foot.
• Mounted Warrior: Works with any unit on a mount as long as the attack weapon is a melee weapon.

It seems for damage related calculations, game is looking at the situation at that moment. Meaning unmounted cavalry is not counted cavalry since all the code does is checking if the soldier is mounted at that moment.
For party/map calculations it does check troop's class.
Of course this is general rule of thumb, if you are curious about any specific perk, I can check it.

We know this isn't true because the Forest Kin scouting perk counts Archers as "Infantry."

Just checked code and it definitely separates ranged units. Can you share a screenshot with both party and move speed hovered please? If it does count ranged, something is wrong. I am willing to dive deeper into code if you can share a pic showing it works.

 

[Wheem]

Hello, these are what I could find from game code:

• Basher: Works with any unit that is in shield wall formation if the weapon used for attack (attackers weapon) is a melee weapon.
• Morning Exercise: Any unit that is on foot.
• Mounted Warrior: Works with any unit on a mount as long as the attack weapon is a melee weapon.

It seems for damage related calculations, game is looking at the situation at that moment. Meaning unmounted cavalry is not counted cavalry since all the code does is checking if the soldier is mounted at that moment.
For party/map calculations it does check troop's class.
Of course this is general rule of thumb, if you are curious about any specific perk, I can check it.


Just checked code and it definitely separates ranged units. Can you share a screenshot with both party and move speed hovered please? If it does count ranged, something is wrong. I am willing to dive deeper into code if you can share a pic showing it works.

I always get an error trying to post images directly on the forum, but maybe these links will work:
Party composition.
Party speed.

Edit:
I normally have more infantry vs archers, but this was taken shortly after some battles and sieges, and I was doing a bit of rebuilding. Still, the "Forest -0.61" line shows that the perk is actually in effect, which effectively negates the forest speed penalty as a Battanian character.

 

[azakhi]

I always get an error trying to post images directly on the forum, but maybe these links will work:
Party composition.
Party speed.

Edit:
I normally have more infantry vs archers, but this was taken shortly after some battles and sieges, and I was doing a bit of rebuilding. Still, the "Forest -0.61" line shows that the perk is actually in effect, which effectively negates the forest speed penalty as a Battanian character.

Thank you very much.
The code is in fact bugged
It doesn't count total troop count when calculating ratio. Instead it counts troop class count. So for example if you have 10 menavlion infantry, it counts that as 1, not 10.
Will make a bug report.

Edit: Bug report, https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...s-count-instead-of-actual-troop-count.453345/

 

[Brano]

good job azakhi. I always wondered how NPC lords apply their perks as they are not able to have captains for their groups. Do they even have perks?

 

[azakhi]

good job azakhi. I always wondered how NPC lords apply their perks as they are not able to have captains for their groups. Do they even have perks?

There doesn't seem to be any special code for AI, it is same for everybody. So AI doesn't get captain perk benefits since they don't have assigned captains. However they do have perks and pick new perks as they develop.

 

[Brano]

Thanks for info. Now its clear

 

[SomeWeirdSins]

Thanks!
So to confirm, the shieldwall damage reduction from "Basher" works on cav troops even when they are mounted? That's pretty interesting. There are a lot of strange interactions like that.

I listed all of the perks below that I think are slightly unclear in the perk description. If we are going by rules we have the following:

Damage perks- work based on the unit's current mount/item status
Swing speed perks -
Move speed - ?
HP - ?
Armor - ?
Weapon skill - ?
Damage vs shields



Are there any other strange interactions among the infantry/cav captain perks?

one-handed, 25, deflect - do dismounted cav get the +30 melee skill?
One-handed, 75, cavalry - damage bonus is lost when dismounted?
One-handed, 75, shield-bearer - move speed applies to dismounted cav?
One-handed, 200, fleet of foot - do dismounted cav get the speed boost?
one-handed, 225, unwavering defense - do dismounted cav get the 10 hp?

Two-handed, 25, wood chopper - does this work for archers/throwers to increase damage vs shields?
Two-handed, 100, shield-breaker - does this work for archers/throwers to increase damage vs shields?
two-handed, 200, thick-hides - do dismounted cav get the bonus HP?
Does the 225 two-handed perk "vandal" increase damage against shields? Does this work for both archers/melee?

Polearm, 75, clean thrust - do dismouted cav get the +30?
polearm, 250, counterweight - do dismounted cav get the +20 polearm skill?

Riding, 250, dauntless steed- do dismouted cav get the +5 armor?
Riding, 250, dauntles steed - does the horse lose the +10 armor if the unit dismounts?

athletics, 25 well built, 5 HP for foot troops
ath, 25, morning exercise - move speed for foot troops
ath, 50, form fitting armor, movespeed
ath, 50, fury, weapon handling
Ath, 250, ignore pain - armor for foot troops

Thanks for any of these you are able to add some clarity to!
Sins

Hello, these are what I could find from game code:

• Basher: Works with any unit that is in shield wall formation if the weapon used for attack (attackers weapon) is a melee weapon.
• Morning Exercise: Any unit that is on foot.
• Mounted Warrior: Works with any unit on a mount as long as the attack weapon is a melee weapon.

It seems for damage related calculations, game is looking at the situation at that moment. Meaning unmounted cavalry is not counted cavalry since all the code does is checking if the soldier is mounted at that moment.
For party/map calculations it does check troop's class.
Of course this is general rule of thumb, if you are curious about any specific perk, I can check it.


Just checked code and it definitely separates ranged units. Can you share a screenshot with both party and move speed hovered please? If it does count ranged, something is wrong. I am willing to dive deeper into code if you can share a pic showing it works

 

[azakhi]

So to confirm, the shieldwall damage reduction from "Basher" works on cav troops even when they are mounted?

Can they be in shield wall formation while mounted?

 

[SomeWeirdSins]

Can they be in shield wall formation while mounted?

Yes, shieldwall while mounted is one of the most powerful ways to use cav.
They will still move at full speed when issued the f1 f3 command

See a clip from my vanguard-faris spam kill "all" the lords run for a demo:

 

[azakhi]

Yes, shieldwall while mounted is one of the most powerful ways to use cav.
They will still move at full speed when issued the f1 f3 command

See a clip from my vanguard-faris spam kill "all" the lords run for a demo:

Interesting. As far as I can see, it works. There is nothing here that checks if character is mounted for Basher perk. As long as attack weapon is a melee weapon and the victim is in shield wall formation, it should give bonus.

I will check other perks when I have time.

 

[azakhi]

one-handed, 25, deflect - do dismounted cav get the +30 melee skill?

No, game code specifically checks if character has mount in its usual equipment set. So even if though they are dismounted during the battle, they would be considered mounted.

One-handed, 75, cavalry - damage bonus is lost when dismounted?

The hero with the perk does lose damage bonus when dismounted. However the Captain part of this perk doesn't seem to be implemented. I can't see anywhere it is being used.

One-handed, 75, shield-bearer - move speed applies to dismounted cav?

Yes, it does. Similarly doesn't apply to an infantry unit if that unit is mounted at that moment.

One-handed, 200, fleet of foot - do dismounted cav get the speed boost?

Calculated exactly same way with Shield Bearer.

one-handed, 225, unwavering defense - do dismounted cav get the 10 hp?

This is the first perk I came upon that checks it in 2 ways. First, it checks if the unit is mounted. Then it checks if the unit's class is infantry. So to answer your question, no, dismounted cavarly doesn't get HP bonus. And what is more, if an infantry unit is mounted during the battle for whatever reason, it doesn't get the bonus either. So this perk is kind of self-conflicting. It won't give bonus to cavalry based on it is class while also not giving bonus to infantry because it is temporarily mounted during battle.

Two-handed, 25, wood chopper - does this work for archers/throwers to increase damage vs shields?

No. The attacker's weapon needs to be considered a weapon that uses Two Handed skill. Bows/crossbows and throwing weapons have their own skills.

Two-handed, 100, shield-breaker - does this work for archers/throwers to increase damage vs shields?

Exactly same way with Wood Chopper. So, no.

two-handed, 200, thick-hides - do dismounted cav get the bonus HP?

All the troops get the bonus. Even cavalry. So, yes.

Does the 225 two-handed perk "vandal" increase damage against shields? Does this work for both archers/melee?

The only thing game checks here is if the attack collision hit an "entity". I know that destructible stuff in sieges etc are entities but I cannot remember if shield would be assigned as entity. Since that is on the engine side (C++), I can't check from code. It can be tested but unfortunately I don't have the time to do that at the moment. From other parts of code, it does seem like the shield would be assigned as entity but can't say for sure so don't quote me on this. And if it does consider shield as entity, then this would work for any class since that is the only thing it checks.

Polearm, 75, clean thrust - do dismouted cav get the +30?

Exactly same way with Deflect. So, no.

polearm, 250, counterweight - do dismounted cav get the +20 polearm skill?

Exactly same way with Clean Thrust. So, no.

Riding, 250, dauntless steed- do dismouted cav get the +5 armor?
Riding, 250, dauntles steed - does the horse lose the +10 armor if the unit dismounts?

Yes, game checks situation at that moment. So dismounted cavalry does lose the armor.
I am guessing second one you meant Tough Steed? In that case, yes. It does lose the armour.

athletics, 25 well built, 5 HP for foot troops

Works as long as the unit is not mounted at that moment. Doesn't check class like Unwavering Stance does.

ath, 25, morning exercise - move speed for foot troops

Same with Well Built.

ath, 50, form fitting armor, movespeed

Works as long as the class is tier 3 or higher and not mounted at that moment.

ath, 50, fury, weapon handling

Works as long as the unit is not mounted at that moment and it has a melee weapon equipped.

Ath, 250, ignore pain - armor for foot troops

Works as long as the unit is not mounted at that moment.

Thanks for any of these you are able to add some clarity to!
Sins

You are welcome. Happy to clarify anything, can't promise I will do right away though.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

So AI doesn't get captain perk benefits since they don't have assigned captains.

This just seems like a huge oversight, is there nothing in the code for this or is it just bugged? Would it be possible to mod this in?

 

[azakhi]

This just seems like a huge oversight, is there nothing in the code for this or is it just bugged? Would it be possible to mod this in?

The parts of code that calculate perk effects don't check if it is player or AI. As long as there is a captain of formation, it works. However I couldn't find anywhere that assigns captains to AI formations. When perks alone considered, it is easy to mod. Just assign heroes in the party as captains. However assigning captains to AI formations might have side effects outside of perks. So can't say if it is easy to mod.