Beta 1.4.3 - Snowballing worse than ever (better than ever after hotfix).

Tercero

Sergeant Knight
WBM&B
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And most of the time in Bannerlord they are in armies. I'm really just not persuaded by your argument at all. All of the things you listed here apply to Bannerlord as well:

How much does it cost to recruit units, how much gold do settlements produce, how effective is each unit in auto resolve. I just don't see the complexity your talking about in any way shape or form.
The difference is that in TW, there is a "hive mind" per faction, each army is a pawn, in BL, in principle, each clan is minding its own business (we can argue if that is the case or not)
 

mexxico

Developer
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Hey Mex, are you the only dev who is taking care of bug fixing and this stuff?

Bcs you always reply to broken things and tell us that you would fix this by your own. I thought behind TW is a team of 80 ppl?
I reply parts which I can fix. I do not reply when I see problems which I can not do anything about. By the way only 30 of 80 people are programmers and only 8 of them are campaign related. These numbers were 12 (total) / 5 (programmers) / 3 (campaign) in Warband :smile:

So even company has 7.5x people compared Warband days Campaign team only get about 2.5x.
 
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AxiosXiphos

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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And most of the time in Bannerlord they are in armies. I'm really just not persuaded by your argument at all. All of the things you listed here apply to Bannerlord as well:

How much does it cost to recruit units, how much gold do settlements produce, how effective is each unit in auto resolve. I just don't see the complexity your talking about in any way shape or form.
because access to those troops, amounts & tier are much more complex. bannerlord factions don't just build a barracks then train troops for 10 turns. they have to go village -village picking up the same pool of recruits the player does. As such the prosperity and safety of these villages ties into supply of troops/quality.

In addition armies have gold values per clan; not per faction. And this gold is brought in from the prosperity of the villages, caravans and towns that clan owns. Each of these has their own procedures for how this is calculated.
 

mexxico

Developer
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0
Solutions done :
1- Siege preperation is now 33% longer
2- Fortifiacation advantage is now higher especailly if attackers started assault with less siege equipments. (It was 2.5-3x now it is 3.5-4x for less number of siege equipments)
3- Because fortification advantage is higher now attackers do not start assault with 0-1-2 equipments generally. So defenders reach with higher probability and attackers lose more men during sieges.
4-Leaving army crash when army is at settlement is fixed also. (not related topic)



These will slow down snowballing a bit but real solution is related to war and peace algorithms. I will focus this next week.

These fixes (1-2-3) will be ready this evening with hotfix and they will be added 1.4.3 (beta) with flat item price fixes explained here https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/almost-no-income-from-workshops-and-caravans.427992/
 

Dc-

Regular
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0
Solutions done :
1- Siege preperation is now 33% longer
2- Fortifiacation advantage is now higher especailly if attackers started assault with less siege equipments. (It was 3x average now it is 4.5x)
3- Because fortification advantage is higher now attackers do not start assault with 0-1-2 equipments generally. So defenders reach with higher probability and attackers lose more men during sieges.



These will slow down snowballing a bit but real solution is related to war and peace algorithms. I will focus this next week.

These fixes (1-2-3) will be ready this evening with hotfix and they will be added 1.4.3 (beta) with flat item price fixes explained here https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/almost-no-income-from-workshops-and-caravans.427992/
You're My Hero
How can I thank You for what You've done
I was zero
Now I feel like I'm number one
ooooh Mexxico
ooooh ooooh
 

Dabos37

Squire
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0
Solutions done :
1- Siege preperation is now 33% longer
2- Fortifiacation advantage is now higher especailly if attackers started assault with less siege equipments. (It was 2.5-3x now it is 3.5-4x for less number of siege equipments)
3- Because fortification advantage is higher now attackers do not start assault with 0-1-2 equipments generally. So defenders reach with higher probability and attackers lose more men during sieges.
4-Leaving army crash when army is at settlement is fixed also. (not related topic)



These will slow down snowballing a bit but real solution is related to war and peace algorithms. I will focus this next week.

These fixes (1-2-3) will be ready this evening with hotfix and they will be added 1.4.3 (beta) with flat item price fixes explained here https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/almost-no-income-from-workshops-and-caravans.427992/

This is great, thanks!!

Concerning war/peace algorithm, here you can check a screen for a 71-day campaign. As you can see, Western Empire is totally gone. This time it has been WE, but NE is usually the bigger offended.


The reason for this is pretty simple, Aserai and Northern Empire making peace since day 1 and then 1 or 2 factions getting massive war declarations (plus the issue you have already fixed related to fast sieges). I have been reporting this issue for a lot of time but without luck for the moment. Avoiding this maybe won't magically solve all the issues and some factions still can get a lot of wars declarations, but it is not comparable having 3 wars against factions with only one war ongoing or having to fight 3 wars against factions with also are fighting other wars.

Plus there are other important things to have into account like map design and try to balance the game around it. For example, Vlandia and especially Kuzhaits have a great map position (same for Aserai to a lesser extend), but at the same time, they are the safest factions involved in a fewer amount of wars. My suggestions for fixing snowballing:

- Most of the snowballing occurs in the first 100 days and I think it is something related to starting armies and garrison composition, please check it and change it if necessary.
- Rather than Sturgia and Aserai going to war 99% of the time, would be great if Aserai and Kuzhait would fight more often (replace Aserai for Southern Empire if it is a better idea).
- Is cavalry still getting 20% bonus in simulated battles? If it is the case, please remove it at least in sieges.
- Make AI less likely to declare wars if the faction is already fighting one (especially if the kingdom is fighting 2 wars). This does not happen too often but sometimes I have seen some factions declaring wars when they are already fighting two.

- In a future, introduce revolts/rebelions and give Vlandia a hard time with this.

I know that balancing and fixing snowballing is a really hard task but there are easy fixes that would probably improve the situation a lot which are being ignored currently (especially Aserai and SE making peace at day 1).
 
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StewVader

Recruit
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0
Solutions done :
1- Siege preperation is now 33% longer
2- Fortifiacation advantage is now higher especailly if attackers started assault with less siege equipments. (It was 2.5-3x now it is 3.5-4x for less number of siege equipments)
3- Because fortification advantage is higher now attackers do not start assault with 0-1-2 equipments generally. So defenders reach with higher probability and attackers lose more men during sieges.
4-Leaving army crash when army is at settlement is fixed also. (not related topic)



These will slow down snowballing a bit but real solution is related to war and peace algorithms. I will focus this next week.

These fixes (1-2-3) will be ready this evening with hotfix and they will be added 1.4.3 (beta) with flat item price fixes explained here https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/almost-no-income-from-workshops-and-caravans.427992/
Thank you for being active with the community! Genuinely, thank you!
 

Schlarkenstein

Regular
Best answers
0
Solutions done :
1- Siege preperation is now 33% longer
2- Fortifiacation advantage is now higher especailly if attackers started assault with less siege equipments. (It was 2.5-3x now it is 3.5-4x for less number of siege equipments)
3- Because fortification advantage is higher now attackers do not start assault with 0-1-2 equipments generally. So defenders reach with higher probability and attackers lose more men during sieges.
4-Leaving army crash when army is at settlement is fixed also. (not related topic)



These will slow down snowballing a bit but real solution is related to war and peace algorithms. I will focus this next week.

These fixes (1-2-3) will be ready this evening with hotfix and they will be added 1.4.3 (beta) with flat item price fixes explained here https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/almost-no-income-from-workshops-and-caravans.427992/
Great news, thank you again


Re: Snowballing

Have you considered that armies might need a debuff? Having multiple 900+ Armies rolling around is always going to create a snowball effect. (Especially when, as more lords join a Kingdom, it gets bigger, leading to more massive armies)...

I've also noticed that certain Clans end up having a lot of influence too.

A couple of possible solutions:

1) The influence costs of starting and maintaining (cohesion) an army could scale upwards with the size of the army. (0-350 = unaffected, 350-550 = 10% extra cost, 550-800 = 25% extra cost, 800+ = 50% extra cost)

2) Bring back the Marshall mechanic where only the Marshall (and the Kingdom leader) can field 800+ armies. - Others can make armies as usual but their size is capped depending on their Clan Tier: Tier 3 = 350cap, Tier 4 = 550cap, Tier 5 = 800 cap, for example

With the right balance, you would expect to see roughly the same amount of castles changing hands but would see far less towns being sieged successfully which would slow the snowballing significantly.
 
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My two cents on snowballing:

Could it be that Sturgia gets poor and weak due to neverending Sea Raiders attacks on villagers?

Also, maybe it is worth implementing a mechanism of "different culture not approving your reign over them". Basically when a kingdom overextends, there are currently no issues recruiting foreign troops and keeping stuff under control in a territory of different culture, but there should be. Stuff like civil wars, villagers refusing to sell their stuff, uprisings, etc.
 

black_bulldog

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
Best answers
0
Solutions done :
1- Siege preperation is now 33% longer
2- Fortifiacation advantage is now higher especailly if attackers started assault with less siege equipments. (It was 2.5-3x now it is 3.5-4x for less number of siege equipments)
3- Because fortification advantage is higher now attackers do not start assault with 0-1-2 equipments generally. So defenders reach with higher probability and attackers lose more men during sieges.
4-Leaving army crash when army is at settlement is fixed also. (not related topic)



These will slow down snowballing a bit but real solution is related to war and peace algorithms. I will focus this next week.

These fixes (1-2-3) will be ready this evening with hotfix and they will be added 1.4.3 (beta) with flat item price fixes explained here https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/almost-no-income-from-workshops-and-caravans.427992/
That's great, but I'm also seeing factions at war with more than 2 other factions. While most aren't a few are is there a reason for that?
 

mexxico

Developer
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0
That's great, but I'm also seeing factions at war with more than 2 other factions. While most aren't a few are is there a reason for that?
That is the main reason of snowball imo. I will examine these codes next week. Some weak factions do not make peace and continue facing 2+ strong enemies even it is not logical for them. They should accept paying tribute.
 

RWBY

Recruit
Best answers
0
Great news, thank you again


Re: Snowballing

Have you considered that armies might need a debuff? Having multiple 900+ Armies rolling around is always going to create a snowball effect. (Especially when, as more lords join a Kingdom, it gets bigger, leading to more massive armies)...

I've also noticed that certain Clans end up having a lot of influence too.

A couple of possible solutions:

1) The influence costs of starting and maintaining (cohesion) an army could scale upwards with the size of the army. (0-350 = unaffected, 350-550 = 10% extra cost, 550-800 = 25% extra cost, 800+ = 50% extra cost)

2) Bring back the Marshall mechanic where only the Marshall (and the Kingdom leader) can field 800+ armies. - Others can make armies as usual but their size is capped depending on their Clan Tier: Tier 3 = 350cap, Tier 4 = 550cap, Tier 5 = 800 cap, for example

With the right balance, you would expect to see roughly the same amount of castles changing hands but would see far less towns being sieged successfully which would slow the snowballing significantly.
I'm not sure if multiple tiny armies are really the big offender here. It might just be that the there are too few defenders, too slowly genereted. When I played one campain with the bannerlord tweaks mods which massivle boost the defensive side and garrions and all that stuff a 900+ men army won't take barely anything. A settlement had around 1.5k defenders ~400 garrison and ~1100 milita there was also a crazy settlement with a whopping 1.8k defenders, took only a 3k army to take it :wink: Anyway castles also had always over 700 defenders so it might be enough to boost militias, garrions, food storage and food production to severely slowing down the snowballing.
Not to mention that leading an army of 2k+ soldiers requires lots of parties, influence, cohesion, provision and so on. Getting all of that and replenshing it after a siege is not quickly done.
 

black_bulldog

Sergeant
WBWF&SVC
Best answers
0
That is the main reason of snowball imo. I will examine these codes next week. Some weak factions do not make peace and continue facing 2+ strong enemies even it is not logical for them. They should accept paying tribute.
Ok thanks.
 

Blood Gryphon

Sergeant at Arms
WBVC
Best answers
1
Solutions done :
1- Siege preperation is now 33% longer
2- Fortifiacation advantage is now higher especailly if attackers started assault with less siege equipments. (It was 2.5-3x now it is 3.5-4x for less number of siege equipments)
3- Because fortification advantage is higher now attackers do not start assault with 0-1-2 equipments generally. So defenders reach with higher probability and attackers lose more men during sieges.
4-Leaving army crash when army is at settlement is fixed also. (not related topic)



These will slow down snowballing a bit but real solution is related to war and peace algorithms. I will focus this next week.

These fixes (1-2-3) will be ready this evening with hotfix and they will be added 1.4.3 (beta) with flat item price fixes explained here https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/almost-no-income-from-workshops-and-caravans.427992/
As always well done and thanks for communication. Do you think in the future we will get to a point where AI armies attempt sieges where they need to break down the walls in order to get the advantage and start the assault? So essentially, the smaller your army the longer you siege to even out the odds. I think this would also help with snowballing if there were more small armies instead of 1 or 2 giant deathballs. As we experience in previous patches after a deathball vs deathball fight the winner steamrolls for the rest of the time. Whats your opinion?
 

Callum

Community Manager
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0
Hey Mexxico, I assume this hotfix will be delayed to next week? As it's getting late in Turkey and you guys have a holiday tomorrow? Ty for all your work.
We just put a hotfix out that should help with the caravan/trading issue and with sieges being initiated too quickly.