Beta 1.4.3 - Snowballing worse than ever (better than ever after hotfix).

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Tommy121

Recruit
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To add to this post. I am having extreme snowballing and whats worse is that factions dont declare peace after anniliating them. So they stay in constant "war" but there is not much of war going on. The game is in a complete stalemate for 4 large factions not fighting each other, just staying at war with the factions they have decimated.
 

Dabos37

Knight
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To add to this post. I am having extreme snowballing and whats worse is that factions dont declare peace after anniliating them. So they stay in constant "war" but there is not much of war going on. The game is in a complete stalemate for 4 large factions not fighting each other, just staying at war with the factions they have decimated.
Have you started the campaign after the last hotfix? I am not seeing snowballing anymore but still Sturgia is at war against 4 factions and starting to lose territory slowly. All other factions are doing ok.
 

Telyon

Regular
WB
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Everything revolving around sieges is a consequence and symptom, not the root cause of snowballing. While reducing attacker advantage can be helpful, it's ultimately missing the main issues that are more deeply rooted and harder to solve. Several factions have significant geographical advantages and disadvantages. The battle auto calculation system is overly simplified and provides disproportionate advantages to the Khuzaits, who can enjoy the cavalry bonus starting at T2 and for half of their commoner line. Their culture bonus ensures they can avoid setbacks and force favorable fights to increase their unit levels. With this context, increasing the time required for sieges merely stalls the inevitable. Without addressing the auto-calc formula or the Khuzait advantages on the campaign map, Khuzait domination is all but ensured without timely player intervention.
 

Tommy121

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Have you started the campaign after the last hotfix? I am not seeing snowballing anymore but still Sturgia is at war against 4 factions and starting to lose territory slowly. All other factions are doing ok.
Got the hotfix and i have done 4 restarts. Same results. Western Empire and (sometimes) Sturgia gone within 100 days. Victorious Kingdoms dont declare peace so they stay at war, eventhough theyve captured all their enemies fiefs. Made a post about it
 
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Dabos37

Knight
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Got the hotfix and i have done 4 restarts. Same results. Western Empire and (sometimes) Sturgia gone within 100 days. Victorious Kingdoms dont declare peace so they stay at war, eventhough theyve captured all their enemies fiefs. Made a post about it
I am not seeing much snowballing after the hotfix but taking into account that Western Empire is getting wrecked in you campaign, you are probably facing this situation:

- SE and Aserai make peace at day 1.
- Se and Aserai declare war to WE some few days ago.
- WE get wrecked.
 

Dabos37

Knight
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Some ideas to improve the war/peace system:

- A kingdom should be less likely to start a new war if there is 1 war ongoing. If the are 2 wars ongoing, a kingdom should not start a new war by itself or at least It should be really rare to happen.
- If the kingdom A is involved in wars against Kingdom B and C, and then kingdom D declares war on kingdom A, the kingdom A should try to make peace with one of the enemies paying tribute. A kingdom should avoid to be involved in more than 2 wars at the same time, especially if It is losing.
- If a kingdom A is losing badly against Kingdom B, then kingdom A should try to ask for peace paying tribute and try to avoid declaring new wars in some time.
 

Tommy121

Recruit
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I am not seeing much snowballing after the hotfix but taking into account that Western Empire is getting wrecked in you campaign, you are probably facing this situation:

- SE and Aserai make peace at day 1.
- Se and Aserai declare war to WE some few days ago.
- WE get wrecked.
Exactly this. Consistently
 

Tommy121

Recruit
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Some ideas to improve the war/peace system:

- A kingdom should be less likely to start a new war if there is 1 war ongoing. If the are 2 wars ongoing, a kingdom should not start a new war by itself or at least It should be really rare to happen.
- If a kingdom is involved in two wars and another kingdom declares war on It, the kingdom with 3 wars ongoing should try to make peace with one of the enemies paying tribute. A kingdom should avoid to be involved in more than 2 wars at the same time, especially if It is losing.
- If a kingdom A is losing badly against Kingdom B, then kingdom A should try to ask for peace and try to avoid declaring new wars in some time.
To add. If a kingdom has no more fiefs left then peace declarations should kick in. This is the crux of the issue. The defeated kingdoms are not being given a chance to rebuild. And because there is no peace dec between dominant vs weak kingdom. That dominate kingdom is less likely to declare war on another super power because it’s already ‘at war’.
 

Koor

Recruit
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To add. If a kingdom has no more fiefs left then peace declarations should kick in. This is the crux of the issue. The defeated kingdoms are not being given a chance to rebuild. And because there is no peace dec between dominant vs weak kingdom. That dominate kingdom is less likely to declare war on another super power because it’s already ‘at war’.

Yeah in my game it's only Khuzait, Azerai and the V guys left. All other civs were destroyed by those three. Now those three don't war eachother, and continue to just farm the defeated factions. I've abandoned my kingdom to try going the solo route, but with no wars to exploit, and only 3 factions, it pretty much kills gameplay. If I try to capture a settlement solo I won't be able to keep it long.

The mechanics behind defeated factions are rather stupid. Why even keep them in the game if they have no potential for every reclaiming a castle/town?

I think the solution would be to make the fallen kingdom's (kingdoms with no cities/castles) absorb bandit armies. This would add a mechanic that would let them start building stacks capable of taking a castle or city and would be realistic in the fact that they would be gathering rebellious people to their cause. The solution to defeat this would be making sure that your lands were bandit free so as not to be feeding your rivals new troops.
 

Apocal

Sergeant Knight
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Does town prosperity affect kingdom military power growth?
Not directly, no.

The mechanics behind defeated factions are rather stupid. Why even keep them in the game if they have no potential for every reclaiming a castle/town?
There are faction abandonment/destruction mechanics if you playthrough the questline. Something like "Nobles flee Garious's Western Empire banner blah blah blah..."
 

Stromming

Veteran
WBWF&SNWVC
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Will be cool when balance is better.
Almost every game i play, northern and southern empire gets wrecked and khergits steamrolls.

Why is it so hard to make a proper AI to use shield wall? Put all shield units in front, so the hordes of recruits don't get punctured by a 1000 arrows.
 

Dabos37

Knight
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Giving some extra feedback about this issue after playing some hours after the last hotfix:

- Snowballing is much better after the hotfix and now we have time to save the weakest factions.
- Aserai and SE making peace at day 1 means that WE get wrecked against Battania, SE and Aserai most of the times.
- Snowballing is still present because Sturgia, NE and/or WE are usually involved in 3-4 wars while other factions just in 1-2.
- It is still pretty usual to see some factions involved in 3 wars and losing without asking for peace.
- Khuzaits need some kind of nerf in autoresolve or maybe some factions like Aserai and SE should be at war against Khuzaits more often. They are still to strong for NE, even if they are fighting a 1v1 war (which is not usually the case because NE is always involved in +3 wars).

Looking forward some Diplomacy tweaks :smile:.

Thanks!
 

Clanker

Recruit
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I'm on day 420 and the Khuzaits have 12 settlements. The entire game they've been fighting 1v1 wars where they just steamroll everyone. There really needs to be some kind of coalition mechanic whereby a faction that expands too quickly gets war declined on them by all their neighbours. It shouldn't be based on how many fiefdoms they own but how quickly they gain them.

Edit: It's now day 422 and they have 13 settlements.
 
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black_bulldog

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&SVC
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Will be cool when balance is better.
Almost every game i play, northern and southern empire gets wrecked and khergits steamrolls.

Why is it so hard to make a proper AI to use shield wall? Put all shield units in front, so the hordes of recruits don't get punctured by a 1000 arrows.
Are you playing on 1.4.2 or on the beta. I'm on the beta on my current playthrough and 100 days in and only one town has been taken from another faction, and couple of castles have exchanged hands too but to me that sounds like good balance.
 

Dabos37

Knight
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I'm on day 420 and the Khuzaits have 12 settlements. The entire game they've been fighting 1v1 wars where they just steamroll everyone. There really needs to be some kind of coalition mechanic whereby a faction that expands too quickly gets war declined on them by all their neighbours. It shouldn't be based on how many fiefdoms they own but how quickly they gain them.

Edit: It's now day 422 and they have 13 settlements.
Yes, Khuzaits are pretty dusgusting in almost every campaign.

They are usually ruining most of my campaigns conquering half of the world before day 500.

Problem with Khuzaits is that they are usually involved in few wars, or just fighting Sturgia and NE, kingdoms which are usually involved in 2736628 wars, so Khuzaits have a really easy time to get everything without much effort. If you sum this with they have the fastest armies/parties and have a great position in the map, the result is Khuzaits being able to steamroll everything in almost every campaign I play.
 
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Dabos37

Knight
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I am going to share the best way to stop snowballing I have found to be able to enjoy the game:

1- Activate cheats.
2- Open dev console and once Aserai and SE make peace, just force them to start a war again.
3- Start a new war, force Khuzait to declare war on Aserai.

If Khuzait are still OP, open console again and force Khuzait to declare war on SE. The thing is that even involved in 3 wars, Khuzait is being able to stands up and fight without much problem. Other factions have also other wars too though.

While Sturgia is slowly losing the war against Vlandia, they are fighting pretty nice, even when Sturgia is also ar war with NE. I am thinking to start a new war between Vlandia and Battania.

Not a great solution and this makes the campaign feels weird because I feel like I am cheating the game, but at least it helps while diplomacy gets fixed.
 

El Capitan

Sergeant
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I am going to share the best way to stop snowballing I have found to be able to enjoy the game:

1- Activate cheats.
2- Open dev console and once Aserai and SE make peace, just force them to start a war again.
3- Start a new war, force Khuzait to declare war on Aserai.

If Khuzait are still OP, open console again and force Khuzait to declare war on SE. The thing is that even involved in 3 wars, Khuzait is being able to stands up and fight without much problem. Other factions have also other wars too though.

While Sturgia is slowly losing the war against Vlandia, they are fighting pretty nice, even when Sturgia is also ar war with NE. I am thinking to start a new war between Vlandia and Battania.

Not a great solution and this makes the campaign feels weird because I feel like I am cheating the game, but at least it helps while diplomacy gets fixed.
The way I've dealt with snowballing is by being a merc and using OP archers combined with retreat cheese to eliminate armies. I would usually do this during early to mid game to help a faction that's war with 3 major factions and won't sue for peace. Even after I did this, the doom stack that I just destroyed would come back the next week with another fresh stack of 800 to 1k men, its bloody ridiculous and I've stopped playing. I hope this gets fixed soon. It drains the fun out when you're cheesing to try to save a kingdom from being wiped out because of stupid Ai.

I think the problem is that vassals still refuse to vote for peace even when they are losing big time. They should rarely be at war with 3 kingdoms, my suggestion is that once a third war is declared on a faction, they should immediately make peace with one kingdom to make the total war to 2.

Another thing that could help tackle snowballing is cultural loyalty, it should be difficult for khuzaits to convince empire factions to join them etc..
 

Dabos37

Knight
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The way I've dealt with snowballing is by being a merc and using OP archers combined with retreat cheese to eliminate armies. I would usually do this during early to mid game to help a faction that's war with 3 major factions and won't sue for peace. Even after I did this, the doom stack that I just destroyed would come back the next week with another fresh stack of 800 to 1k men, its bloody ridiculous and I've stopped playing. I hope this gets fixed soon. It drains the fun out when you're cheesing to try to save a kingdom from being wiped out because of stupid Ai.

I think the problem is that vassals still refuse to vote for peace even when they are losing big time. They should rarely be at war with 3 kingdoms, my suggestion is that once a third war is declared on a faction, they should immediately make peace with one kingdom to make the total war to 2.

Another thing that could help tackle snowballing is cultural loyalty, it should be difficult for khuzaits to convince empire factions to join them etc..

Yes, I have tried to help NE and Sturgia fighint as mercenary for these factions to deal with Khuzaits, but it was non enjoyable to have to defeat 10 parties per minute. So I have this other way which allows me to enjoy the game without having to rush for Palatine Guard army asap in order to stop snowballing.

And yes, it will be hopefully fixed soon.