Which leveling system do you prefer Warband or Bannerlord?

[monoolho]

I actually like the new system. I think some of the XP factors could be broadened so there are more opportunities to learn some of the less common skills, but I love increasing my stats from actually using them. Maybe I just have not reached a high enough level, but at the moment, I really like it.

This. The system needs a lot of work, yes, but it is Early Access, and, well, it's still in development, so I'm confident about it.

However, you OP touched my biggest gripes with it:

• Inconsequential choices. (You don't really feel the impact of any choices outside of the minor annoyance of more/less save scumming.)

  I also feel this, but have no idea how to remedy it. Maybe it's a design flaw.

• Grindy as all hell. (It brings with it the WORST aspect of the Elder Scrolls games. Where you just repeat the same metagame stuff over and over to grind skills.)

  This, it has to go. It's bad enough we will eventually lose our main character (totally fine with it, it's just that grinding someone for 30 in-game years, to then have to redo all of the work from scratch...). Increase XP gain for the player, AI and troops, so we have less recruits might be the way to improve it. So every new character might feel like a new game again, but you have no fear of having to grind it all over again. I know it was thought over the long-run of the game, so it doesn't feel repetitive, but it will. Making it more grindy will not mitigate that fact. My belief is: making it less grindy, makes it more rewarding to lose a character - it's a loss, of course, but not the worst one ever. I will feel pressured to redo the same 15 quests a hundred times each just to level up some stuff with every character, this aches inside. One way would be to add another 200 different quests, which is a LOT of work, and I don't expect something like this anytime soon, so it would be less repetitive, but no less grindy. Too much grind takes away from the fun, and transforms parts of the game into chores. I know different characters might be more fun if we do different roleplays - start with a conqueror, continue with a trader, then a mercenary, than a revolutionary... But it is easier to do this in your head, in theory, than actually do it in-game, especially if you know you'll be spending the next 40 game hours grinding levels.

• Disjointed stats that do nothing but raise skill caps. (They are just entirely pointless. Either give them a use or remove them.)

  Unfortunately, this. I was afraid when they said that there would be no 1000 stat man, because stats actually add to your character, but in BL, they only raise the caps instead of adding said skill. It would be awkward having an 80 year old with 99 STR and AGI going Goku on sea raiders and Vlandian knights, but it would be fun. We would feel that that character earned such skill, and their death would be a tragedy and a blow to our power.

• Soft/Hard effective level capping. (You reach a point where you can't level without skillups, but you can't get skillups unless you level.)

  Not sure about this, but I think I agree there, maybe place much higher caps. Maybe not having 100 in each skill would be fine, since we will have heirs, but I don't like being capped so hard.

• Unclear concepts of what you actually have to do to raise some skills. (Why wasn't someone hired to make proper tool tips?)

  I sort of feel the same way.

• Skill leveling speed imbalance. (Some skills take ages to increase. You actually penalize yourself at creation by assigning points to quick leveling skills.)

  Sort of agree there.

 

[Zmyrf]

Yeah overall I like it a lot even if it's not all the way there, did get put off at first though but fck it I went with it. So far 30 hours in and it feels more alive to play with, more connected to your character's style compared to Warband's. It's more broad in WB, this one gives a better RP feeling imo.

 

[Jhaerik]

The new system is great... just need some adjustments, like reducing the grind, rearranging a few perks and probably removing the cap...but the foundation is there and it's definitely superior if you compare to the old system.
I think what most people won't understand is the game is not ready and this is not their priority right now...I expect them to take a look at the crashes and optimizations during the next weeks...only then this kind of issue will be looked into.

You understand that the entire system effectively IS the cap right? lol

 

[stevehoos]

Yeah overall I like it a lot even if it's not all the way there, did get put off at first though but fck it I went with it. So far 30 hours in and it feels more alive to play with, more connected to your character's style compared to Warband's. It's more broad in WB, this one gives a better RP feeling imo.

Lose options and control for an RP feeling, that's the trade off. Not a fan.

 

[Maelstrom8]

The levelling mechanic in Bannerlord.. the concept of it is simply phenominal. It takes a massive dump on what Warband called skills and weapon proficiencies. It just needs a ton of work, like most of the game (go figure yeah).

You have valid points, but all of these will either be addressed in time by TW or the modders. At this pace, the modders *cough* Better Native *sneeze*. Also, you made the right decision by re-buying the game.

 

[w84m3]

Personally I can't stand the new system and my biggest hope is for a total rework into the older (better( system. I'm curious to see how many feel the same way.

My biggest issues with the Bannerlord leveling system are:

• Inconsequential choices. (You don't really feel the impact of any choices outside of the minor annoyance of more/less save scumming.)
• Grindy as all hell. (It brings with it the WORST aspect of the Elder Scrolls games. Where you just repeat the same metagame stuff over and over to grind skills.)
• Disjointed stats that do nothing but raise skill caps. (They are just entirely pointless. Either give them a use or remove them.)
• Companions never level. (They also start with FAR too many combat skills. They simply outclass you entirely.)
• Soft/Hard effective level capping. (You reach a point where you can't level without skillups, but you can't get skillups unless you level.)
• The focus system in unintuitive. (Sure you get a modifier on skill increases, but you can just grind more to get those increases, effectively it's just a cap increase.)
• The fact that skills have arbitrary cap limits to begin with. (See the points above.)
• Unclear concepts of what you actually have to do to raise some skills. (Why wasn't someone hired to make proper tool tips?)
• Skill leveling speed imbalance. (Some skills take ages to increase. You actually penalize yourself at creation by assigning points to quick leveling skills.)

In summation I find the entirely system overly complicated, inferior, and more limiting that the system most of us have used for the past 15 years. I think the saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" applies here in spades. There is a reason you don't need to reinvent the wheel. It works, leave it alone.

So the game is early access, so balancing issues, check.
This system is very close to the warband system if you think about it... you would also level up fighting profeciences by playing, it's the exact same thing but on a larger scale where you are rewarded just by playing while in the previous you would actually had to lvl up to have more troops in your party, now you just need to play! wow!! The grind! I never imagined i would need to play the game to level up my skills! Jesus get me out of here! Let's refund!
The grind as it is now exists yes, but it's just a matter of tweaks, with xp gains and the actual tasks you need to perform to level up a skill.I agree that maintaining high moral so your leadership kill increses shouldn't be the only way, but that can be added, also maybe tweak the min moral needed, should be easy to make the skill system functional and enjoyable to use.

As it comes with skill caps, again they existed in warband, you had to level up your archer skill so your bow profecience could level up with ease, again it's the same thing, you need steard focus and inteligence, or social or whatever to increase the cap of steward, not so complicated of a system.

I much prefer this system, i see it's potencial, and with the feedback it will become much better to lvl up past lvl 10.
Companion not leveling is the fault of xp gains again, and possibly too big of a xp needed vs the amount that you win, again that can be easly be fixed by the powerfull tweaks!

 

[anton97]

I much prefer the new system, but like others have pointed out it needs to be iterated upon further. There´s a mod on Nexus that raises the amount of XP gained for different actions and it makes the system feel much better already.

 

[left2live]

You understand that the entire system effectively IS the cap right? lol

We like it and we stand by it, you hate it so just refund the game again and save us all from hearing you whining every single day about something new. You dont see me crying rivers on the forums for things that will be fixed in the future -.-

 

[monoolho]

You have valid points, but all of these will either be addressed in time by TW or the modders.

Unfortunately, that's a really bad thing to say. Since 2018, most people here have been placing far too much faith in modders. I, being one of them, do not like such pressure on my shoulders, and I'm sure no one else does, not even the devs, but it's their job, their duty. This doesn't have to be an Elder Scrolls game, with Unofficial patches and what-nots, fixing basic stuff. But I am also certain that the devs are having a really bad time with bug reports and actually trying to fix and balance things.

 

[VincentNZ]

More than half the people in this forum so far do not like the new system, that says a lot there.

Yeah, well this is to be expected, people here are usually the die-hard Warband fans and too drastic changes usually are polarising. Yes, Warbands system was working and did nothing really bad, however it also did nothing well.
Also many people here have an opinion, yet, since the new system is somewhat complex, do not fully grasp how it works and what they can do to make the system work better. For, example I started my character with max proficiency in riding and bow, as this is the thing I do the most in the first two hours. Then I put points into trade, as I just started with that. This makes me raise proficiency, especially in trade to reach 75-100 within the first 2-3 hours, while also leveling up faster. Once I start having an army, I will put more points in the according skills like Steward, Tactics and Engineering, Leadership, or maybe I will do smithing.
That said, reaching a proficient level of 50-75 can be done reasonably fast in many skills especially if they are passives and/or if you have 1-2 focus points in it.
Now there are many problems still, like the optimal way to level riding and bow is to shoot at looters from 40m away while stationary. Also the amounts of skill increases needed is too much, especially beyond level 9, while it takes too long to really master a certain skill, even with maxed out focus.
.
The companion issue is mostly that they come with a really high level and much higher skills than the player, so naturally you won't see a level up. However, when you want companions to level, you can accept family feud quests, fail them by time, which gives you a level 8 or so companion with low skills. I do not know if you can level them though, just something I noticed. So the issue is not really the leveling system, just their level themselves and the different way you are supposed to use them (like as your dedicated engineer/trader/surgeon from the start).

 

[Sarissofoi]

Also most perks simply do not work.

 

[Jhaerik]

First of all let me say I'd like to see the entire system scraped, and a complete return to the older style. As I see that as unlikely at this point my remedies for the issues I brought up will be listed below.

Inconsequential choices. (You don't really feel the impact of any choices outside of the minor annoyance of more/less save scumming.

I also feel this, but have no idea how to remedy it. Maybe it's a design flaw.

My suggestion would be to simply raise the numbers. I should just be getting 1% speed, or 3 arrows, or 4% damage. I should be getting 5% speed, an extra quiver slot, or 20% damage. Riding should be the different in staying on your horse or being tossed to the ground when it takes damage. As for out of combat skills Medicine for example should be the difference in wounded troops EVER recovering, or a percentage of them dying. Scouting should be the difference in seeing or not seeing an extra 20 soldiers in an enemy party. Leadership should be the difference in a noble even giving you a shot at leading men. Ect.

Grindy as all hell. (It brings with it the WORST aspect of the Elder Scrolls games. Where you just repeat the same metagame stuff over and over to grind skills

This, it has to go. It's bad enough we will eventually lose our main character (totally fine with it, it's just that grinding someone for 30 in-game years, to then have to redo all of the work from scratch...). Increase XP gain for the player, AI and troops, so we have less recruits might be the way to improve it. So every new character might feel like a new game again, but you have no fear of having to grind it all over again. I know it was thought over the long-run of the game, so it doesn't feel repetitive, but it will. Making it more grindy will not mitigate that fact. My belief is: making it less grindy, makes it more rewarding to lose a character - it's a loss, of course, but not the worst one ever. I will feel pressured to redo the same 15 quests a hundred times each just to level up some stuff with every character, this aches inside. One way would be to add another 200 different quests, which is a LOT of work, and I don't expect something like this anytime soon, so it would be less repetitive, but no less grindy. Too much grind takes away from the fun, and transforms parts of the game into chores. I know different characters might be more fun if we do different roleplays - start with a conqueror, continue with a trader, then a mercenary, than a revolutionary... But it is easier to do this in your head, in theory, than actually do it in-game, especially if you know you'll be spending the next 40 game hours grinding levels.

Outside of adding more content to make things feel less grindy I think skills need to raise more organically. My suggestion would be to revert to an experience based level system and upon each level up you are awarded a number of skill points in each skill equal to the number of focus points you have spent into the skill. Skills would also increase normally when used. This allows for customization with less meta game grinding.

Disjointed stats that do nothing but raise skill caps. (They are just entirely pointless. Either give them a use or remove them.

Unfortunately, this. I was afraid when they said that there would be no 1000 stat man, because stats actually add to your character, but in BL, they only raise the caps instead of adding said skill. It would be awkward having an 80 year old with 99 STR and AGI going Goku on sea raiders and Vlandian knights, but it would be fun. We would feel that that character earned such skill, and their death would be a tragedy and a blow to our power.

Not a lot to be said here other than either stats need to give small but noticeable passive bonuses or they should just be removed. They just overly complicate things with no real purpose as it stands.

Soft/Hard effective level capping. (You reach a point where you can't level without skillups, but you can't get skillups unless you level.)

Not sure about this, but I think I agree there, maybe place much higher caps. Maybe not having 100 in each skill would be fine, since we will have heirs, but I don't like being capped so hard.

This would be fixed simply by going back to an XP/Level based system. You can STILL have skills have their own seperate XP bars, and have focusing effect the rate of that XP but there is literally no reason to knock of one of Bethesda's worst ideas for a leveling system. I guess they are trying to appeal to a younger crowd, and it may even be working, but god it feels terrible. You can't get skills unless you level due to caps, but you can't raise caps unless you level. It's... well stupid. How it got past the design phase I have no idea. A temporary fix would just be to lower the number of skillups required to level up. That's not a good long term fix in my opinion though.

Unclear concepts of what you actually have to do to raise some skills. (Why wasn't someone hired to make proper tool tips?)

I sort of feel the same way.

My suggestion here is a simple "hold shift" expanded tooltip option where more of the "math" is displayed. Or an extra tab for that purpose. Let those it doesn't matter to do as they will, but let the people that want to no exactly what is needed to progress have the information they need.

Skill leveling speed imbalance. (Some skills take ages to increase. You actually penalize yourself at creation by assigning points to quick leveling skills.

Sort of agree there.

Obviously there wasn't a lot of playtesting done here. If they had they'd noticed in 2 seconds that skills like leadership simply don't progress at a rate you'll ever be able to make real use of. Outside of tweaking numbers there needs to be another way to increase skills. We need combat trainers, and the ability to increase skills through either study or leveling up.

 

[World's Coolest Old Guy]

Warband's always felt fast, dry, and unrewarding. I far prefer Bannerlord's method, personally. Plus it makes Intelligence actually count for something.

Unfortunately, that's a really bad thing to say. Since 2018, most people here have been placing far too much faith in modders. I, being one of them, do not like such pressure on my shoulders, and I'm sure no one else does, not even the devs, but it's their job, their duty. This doesn't have to be an Elder Scrolls game, with Unofficial patches and what-nots, fixing basic stuff. But I am also certain that the devs are having a really bad time with bug reports and actually trying to fix and balance things.

Easy there, no need to go fitting yourself for a cape just yet. No one's putting pressure on you that you're not putting on yourself. I severely doubt a single soul will ferret you out here on the forums or elsewhere and sling complaints at you if you don't "fix" this or that thing they feel the devs got wrong.

 

[Neo Corricon]

I would like to see a hybrid system like Fable. Give us some generic XP, earned at a lower rate, or spent at a higher rate that allows us to cross train some skills.

 

[stevehoos]

I think they patched out companions joining via Family Feud quests.

 

[rokiiz]

Bannerlord seems better on paper, but im sure you will despise it after few campaigns. Elder scrolls leveling systems always come down to finding the best way to cheese the system, it is fun first few times, but then, god damn, leveling your smiting for fifth time is no fun at all (1000 iron daggers in skyrim)

 

[bestguy]

Definitely Bannerlord's system. In Warband you gain levels through exp and you can spend it on any skill you want. That made no sense. Why should fighting 100 Swadians help me increase my engineering?
The Bannerlord system's much better but needs balancing and fixing around exp gain and stuff.

 

[VincentNZ]

I think they patched out companions joining via Family Feud quests.

Yeah, well scrap my workaround then. I thought it was quite funny, since it would be random dudes from a certain culture and an easy low level companion. I thought it was intentional, since the dude is relatively safe from vengeance while in your party.

 

[Jhaerik]

Definitely Bannerlord's system. In Warband you gain levels through exp and you can spend it on any skill you want. That made no sense. Why should fighting 100 Swadians help me increase my engineering?
The Bannerlord system's much better but needs balancing and fixing around exp gain and stuff.

It's better than Bannerlords system of fighting 1000 Vlandian makes you better at... absolutely nothing.

I mean just think about it. You have to kill HUNDREDS of people with your sword... for something like a 4% damage increase. There have been a LOT of skilled sword combatants in history and not a damn one of them ever killed a thousand men with his sword. Skills in life generally increase through study. Experience was just a natural way to represent the progression of your characters. You don't get better with a sword by stabbing 100 people in the back with it, you get better by practicing.

Experience/Levels is an artificial system, but at the end of the day it's still more logical than "kill 10000 people with your sword."

 

[bestguy]

It's better than Bannerlords system of fighting 1000 Vlandian makes you better at... absolutely nothing.

Riding increases your riding skill. Getting wounded increases surgery. Building increases engineering. Using one handed increases one handed etc. This is how it should be.