Voting Poll:What's Your Favorite Type Of Firearm To Use?
- Thread starter Computica
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Daedelus_McGee
Sergeant at Arms
I do think it worth noting that the primary advantage of musketry over longbow is training time. Training a real longbowman takes a lot of time and a lot of good food. You can train gutter trash up to be musket infantry, but real longbowman have to come from the yeoman class who hold their own lands and are not impoverished by taxation. The musculature necessary to shoot a longbow rapidly and effectively is no small matter.
Having said that, right up until the development of the flintlock, trained longbowman in good feed will always destroy firearms troops. The problem comes when somebody willing to pile up bodies keeps training up the matchlock shooters until the archers wither away. There aren't mechanics in this mod or any other I've seen to accurately represent the incredibly long training process longbow archery requires. Especially since the gating factor on archer effectiveness is how fast they can shoot, and in this game that is determined by weapon, not by individual.
Of course, this could be modelled in the mod by releasing bows that have speeds of 120+, but require power draw of 9+.
Having said that, right up until the development of the flintlock, trained longbowman in good feed will always destroy firearms troops. The problem comes when somebody willing to pile up bodies keeps training up the matchlock shooters until the archers wither away. There aren't mechanics in this mod or any other I've seen to accurately represent the incredibly long training process longbow archery requires. Especially since the gating factor on archer effectiveness is how fast they can shoot, and in this game that is determined by weapon, not by individual.
Of course, this could be modelled in the mod by releasing bows that have speeds of 120+, but require power draw of 9+.
Hmm...Daedelus_McGee said:
[Taking Notes]
So what other ways could I make using a bow more realistic but fun at the same time? Wait hold on I think I get it. Let's say Power Draw skill is thrown out but all the bows have a super slow speed. Let's say I were to change some code around to make it so that your WP in bows depended on how fast & accurate you could shoot a bow? Do you think that would work better? So that way most grades of bows mostly determine the strength of the arrow and how far it'll fly?
Daedelus_McGee
Sergeant at Arms
Computica said:
I do think that strength should have a gating function of what kind of bow you can use, but power draw might be the factor that determines speed. Power lifters can pull a longbow, but archers can shoot it quickly and effectively.
John Ringo has an excellent discussion of this in his book "There Will Be Dragons" which is available online here for free: http://www.webscription.net/p-412-there-will-be-dragons.aspx (Warning: When the first one is free, you are being offered an addictive substance.) Chapter 30 has the relevant passage, but the entire book is worth inhaling and you can quit any time you want... [Am I complaining because I got killed when I was redshirted...yes, yes I am. ] Be advised, if you start building a "There Will Be Dragons" Mod before you get SOD:WB ver 4.2C out, you'll have to deal with the complaints on your own, you were warned.
DoctorPringles
Veteran
Personally, I liked the idea of a strength requirement for higher-damaging bows, and making the "Power Draw" skill increase shooting speed. So, for instance, a longbow will initially have a speed of 50. With each rank in Power Draw, this is increased by 8. So at 10 ranks of Power Draw, you'll be shooting longbows at a speed of 130. Then, of course, weaker/smaller ranged bows will shoot faster to balance out.
Winterwolf00
Sergeant Knight
Muskets are not widespread enough in game to be very popular.
Von Draxis
Recruit
I like pistols myself, but feel like they should do more damage. Right now, I'm not really seeing a reason to use them at all b/c bows do more damage and you can fire more rapidly and carry more ammo. I see very few upside to firearms right now, just giving the pistol more of a punch would be perfect, that and raising the ammo capacity. I mean 20 bullets and cartridges takes up far less room than 20 arrows....
Von Draxis
Recruit
Thanks. As I see it, the real appeal of firearms when they showed up was their ability to give the average joe the ability to bring down a knight with relatively little training (though that reload time would be murder.) I think the reload rate is fine now, but to really use firearms effectively at all you need at least two pistols and that leaves room for no ammo, so I think that it will work out well. I'm not sure how to handle giving it to line troops though. I know you're opposed to it, so may I suggest what they're doing in "with fire and steel" (which is fantastic, but needs the diplomacy options integrated, if there was a SOD for it, I'd play little else.)
There they have a mercenary camp where you can hire soldiers and upgrade their gear through a dialogue window. It might be interesting to take a look at that because then you could concievably figure a way to purchase muskets for your men and apply the same thing to have your marksmen use muskets or bows (since you have both in your inventory). Also, you'd have to upgrade to horribly expensive "modern" flintlocks to make muskets be really useful on a large scale (due to they reloading much faster than a matchlock or especially a wheel lock). This is me just spouting ideas and chomping at the bit for them to release some diplomacy stuff for F&S so I can take over a country...
There they have a mercenary camp where you can hire soldiers and upgrade their gear through a dialogue window. It might be interesting to take a look at that because then you could concievably figure a way to purchase muskets for your men and apply the same thing to have your marksmen use muskets or bows (since you have both in your inventory). Also, you'd have to upgrade to horribly expensive "modern" flintlocks to make muskets be really useful on a large scale (due to they reloading much faster than a matchlock or especially a wheel lock). This is me just spouting ideas and chomping at the bit for them to release some diplomacy stuff for F&S so I can take over a country...
Daedelus_McGee
Sergeant at Arms
After a certain point the timing issues associated with reloading firearms make them superior, but with most of the weapons provided in this game, shooters without pike support are dead the moment cavalry arrives, they just haven't fallen over yet. Since the formation physics aren't solid enough yet to provide genuinely tight pike formations firearms are an expensive curiosity in mass battles.
Now as for my favorite firearm to use:
'Nuff Said:
Now as for my favorite firearm to use:
'Nuff Said:
Halrik
Regular
Computica said:
This is good. I have to admit, the firearms seem almost entirely worthless. The only times I ever see anyone die from them are during the rare siege-defense, when I watch the same Boundless Samurai, who's standing across the killzone in front of me (with the ladder between us) take pot shots at the guys on the ladder about once a minute.
Err... Also, I've been shot in the head by a thug with a pistol, and received 0 damage.
All this said though, the fact is that the more modern types of plate armor at the time actually could stop a shot from a pistol, and were routinely tested by, in fact, shooting them with a pistol.
As for firearm of choice? Dual barrel carbine.
Errr, and in case anyone's still going on about the power-draw augmentation. No, that's stupid and pointless. Agility and the archery skill already influence your attack speed, and skill is the judge of skill.
Power Draw is a strength-based skill which shows your ability to use your strength to get full draw out of your bow. It's fine the way it is.I agree with Halrik here. I did my best to simulate the effects of Plate Armor on bullets. Even though bullets are piercing weapons; the effect they have on armor is very light. Like I said though. Firearms are valuable for point, shoot, & kill. If you land a hit it will do damage. Just because it might not kill your target on the first hit they are definitely dangerous against a crowd of troops.
Von Draxis
Recruit
Computica said:
Alright, I can buy that, but isn't that plate armor you're talking about? It seems like there are very few line soldiers who are actually wearing plate armor because that seems to be mostly nobles and what not. I'm not saying one shot should kill a knight, but one should kill your run of the mill line soldier if he doesn't have his shield up.
Von Draxis
Recruit
Alrighty then, there we go, a musket shot should kill, and a pistol shot should do a lot of a damage in the event that it doesn't kill lol. But seriously, I really appreciate the effort you put into this. That does beg one question though.... Will there be a SOD for Fire and Steel? I don't know too much, but it is the same engine even down to be warband based, right? I'm not asking you to put this down or anything, I'm just curious if one could port it, because that might be a project that some one else might be willing to attempt.
I asked if that was possible from the mods and they said the game can not use any Warband Native Resources. So therefore it would be illegal to do so. I wish I could since that engine has better features for modders. But I can't. I did and there are too meshes missing in order to play it. I could do so on my own but putting it out there for everyone else would be wrong to do.Von Draxis said:
Von Draxis
Recruit
Alright, I will continue to dream then. It really reminds me of the Fallout 3 - Fallout New Vegas issues because you can't use resources from one to another, though there are already items from FO3 in FONV. I'll have to wait on a diplomacy mod then as they have linear warfare working well and the caravan system is great. Would it be possible to integrate the ideas they had like the mercenary camp (with upgradable mercs) or the caravan trade system?
