It's 2024. Spears still suck

[Diavolo]

I recently have been playing the multiplayer mod cRPG for bannerlord. There they have made many changes to the combat mechanics, so much in fact that people are complaining that hoplites are too strong. For all the people here who wants to play a spear user, go play cRPG, it’s a lot of fun even after they inevitably nerf spears a bit again.

 

[Philozoraptor]

There are mods that fix the issue to big degree, but I understand that some people want to play MP or on console (very brave to buy mod heavy / dependent game like BL on console in the first place).

 

[Ulfhedinn_]

+1

Spears in Warband are much superior.

 

[Count Talbar]

It would be nice if at the very least if stabs wouldn't be blocked by characters and objects behind you. That alone makes spear formations useless.

 

[kweassa]

It would be nice if at the very least if stabs wouldn't be blocked by characters and objects behind you. That alone makes spear formations useless.

I never understood the logic behind that one. None of the other swinging weapons are blocked from activation by having a person or a wall behind you, so why just spears?

 

[Count Talbar]

I never understood the logic behind that one. None of the other swinging weapons are blocked from activation by having a person or a wall behind you, so why just spears?

It happens with stabs on all weapons, though it's more pronounced on spears because of their length. Side swings can in some situations get stuck while overheads never get stuck.

 

[pontaeri]

Yeah agree on this . . . I notice Bannerlord, the 2H axes is one of the better weapons. Problem is spear hitbox and penetration is pretty lame (say vs 2H axe), but spear actually is more RL if one has crush through and slice through toggled (its one of the console activators) and helps it immensely but then other weapons like 2H axe becomes god like.

The BF and I new to HEMA, but are kung fu practitioners. It's ubiquity comes from both logistics and practicality. The spear, from a logistics point of view, it's easy to make. A spear head takes less mats and time compared to a sword. And in places where decent wood is available to make shafts . . . Secondly learning basics of a spear is easier than a sword but mastery of it takes longer than a straight edged saber technique wise. The range it provides for the effort of build and technique is the third reason why most armies fielded spearmen (they were spearwomen but that is more a rarity than norm in historical context), if you can hit someone before they can hit you, advantage central.

The spear in Ancient Chinese martial arts (as well as feudal Japanese) is considered the king of weapons. Our sifu can hold off three or four students with just saber and shield with his polearm (yue ya chan / monks spade). His specialty is to redirect or use blocks and whip around for a hit. Spears can be used at close range, you just have to pull it back and have hands at the half way point (same how hema halfsword technique with mail gloves). The best way is a jab to push / occupy someone / poke their shield / push it and pull back and angle strike on their parter (hopefully) who has an opening to snake the spear head in. Also angle changes can be done with back hand wrist shifts. Or one can stab in one direction and pull it and swing the spear head so it can slice (better used with blade type heads like glaives). Also the shaft can be used like staff weapon, for a blunt damage.

In HEMA spears are an important weapon (in early days of firearms, pikeman still had some use, and bayonets on long rifles like flintlocks were carry over from pikeman) and a lot of technique carries over across both disciplines. The range and ability to kill at that range is what gives a spearman advantage over a sword, mace, axe etc. And at certain angles, one can slide it inside a shield to get inside for a hit. However it is hard to translate that into a game, even games like mordhau and chivarly don't get it quite right. Maybe bannerlord can get the axe head hitbox and allow every spear to be swung / stabbed or if you hold attack button and swing the mouse it swings the spear slightly. Plus they'd have to have the hitbox for slice or pierce for the head and blunt to hit with the shaft.

 

[Ningauble]

Yeah agree on this . . . I notice Bannerlord, the 2H axes is one of the better weapons. Problem is spear hitbox and penetration is pretty lame (say vs 2H axe), but spear actually is more RL if one has crush through and slice through toggled (its one of the console activators) and helps it immensely but then other weapons like 2H axe becomes god like.

The BF and I new to HEMA, but are kung fu practitioners. It's ubiquity comes from both logistics and practicality. The spear, from a logistics point of view, it's easy to make. A spear head takes less mats and time compared to a sword. And in places where decent wood is available to make shafts . . . Secondly learning basics of a spear is easier than a sword but mastery of it takes longer than a straight edged saber technique wise. The range it provides for the effort of build and technique is the third reason why most armies fielded spearmen (they were spearwomen but that is more a rarity than norm in historical context), if you can hit someone before they can hit you, advantage central.

The spear in Ancient Chinese martial arts (as well as feudal Japanese) is considered the king of weapons. Our sifu can hold off three or four students with just saber and shield with his polearm (yue ya chan / monks spade). His specialty is to redirect or use blocks and whip around for a hit. Spears can be used at close range, you just have to pull it back and have hands at the half way point (same how hema halfsword technique with mail gloves). The best way is a jab to push / occupy someone / poke their shield / push it and pull back and angle strike on their parter (hopefully) who has an opening to snake the spear head in. Also angle changes can be done with back hand wrist shifts. Or one can stab in one direction and pull it and swing the spear head so it can slice (better used with blade type heads like glaives). Also the shaft can be used like staff weapon, for a blunt damage.

In HEMA spears are an important weapon (in early days of firearms, pikeman still had some use, and bayonets on long rifles like flintlocks were carry over from pikeman) and a lot of technique carries over across both disciplines. The range and ability to kill at that range is what gives a spearman advantage over a sword, mace, axe etc. And at certain angles, one can slide it inside a shield to get inside for a hit. However it is hard to translate that into a game, even games like mordhau and chivarly don't get it quite right. Maybe bannerlord can get the axe head hitbox and allow every spear to be swung / stabbed or if you hold attack button and swing the mouse it swings the spear slightly. Plus they'd have to have the hitbox for slice or pierce for the head and blunt to hit with the shaft.

Marry me !

I too like to muse about this sort of thing, safe here in the 21st century to dream of adventuring through history, 500, a thousand, two thousand, years ago .........
I suspect our approach to all this martial arts " business " is a modern construct, however.
Even " serious " movies, like " The Last Duel " ( a well - documented " true " story, a terrific film, and to be fair the fight did end up a pretty grubby affair on the ground, as the historical record describes, so OK Ridley Scott ), choreograph their fights for exciting modern entertainment, whatever that is. On the other hand is Bruce Lee et al - albeit great to watch. A kaleidoscope of images and ideation, from many sources, including pure imagination and " story - telling ", of what is " physically possible " in fighting, of what fighting is, of how a fight goes, is thus created .......... but this is not Sparta. Our club dojos, and HEMA, and MMA , etc, are for something - fitness, " sport " ( nb with rules, with regard to ..... safety ! ), fun, even nostalgic fantasy, but I have an idea our ancestors would look at us and laugh and say that we are all play - fighting children, thinking it even approaches a simulation of the real thing.
Don't believe the / your own propaganda.
Kill or be killed is a very different thing ( don't we know this, really ? )
Playing, at least watching, rugby gives one the feeling that our best physical efforts and intentions and training somehow degrade, almost clumsily, in the face of physics, reality, chaos, the other 100 kg guys ......... another observation is that real fights tend to go to the ground rather rapidly. Let alone real injuries quickly side- lining us fragile humans.
I imagine a close order spear and shield wall, say hoplites, vikings ( close order ? ...... maybe ), is a very different physical and psychological and technical prospect to a loose order one on one, or one on three or even four ( where, to be frank, the one " should not " prevail ), free - wheeling skirmish.
I consider shield and armour factors would make a big difference on a packed battlefield, especially with archers around. How would you feel getting out there in just, say, a linen shirt ?
I consider early to middle Imperial Roman legionaries ( nb not spears ) to be the most efficient infantry of pre - modern history. Who doesn't ?
But I think the biggest influence on any fight, on a small ( individual ) or large ( army, nation ) scale, is mental, related to morale, the will to fight, leadership, experience, effective tactics that can build a morale ascendancy, etc
After all, the best generals don't even have to fight .........


( btw my insights are informed by my experience of fencing, judo, hap ki do, rugby, archery, equestrian sports such as dressage, and table top wargaming and the "codifying" of combat in various rule sets, and of course a consuming interest to study history, especially military history; I see I have pursued a lot of " old world ambience " in my life, for some " romantic " reason, along with years of " reality " serving in Defence as an officer .............. )


Having said all this, I am of course in perfect agreement with the OP - it's 2024 and there is precious little about Bannerlord that does not still suck.
Inconceivable.

 

[BlueRiddle]

I recommend using the Spear Rework mod on Bannerlord Nexus. Really old, but still works on 1.2.9.

The no extra damage version makes spears actual useful weapons in melee combat, while the extra damage version makes them flat out dominate, to the point that spear-armed Vlandian Sergeants will rip straight through Legionnaries.

If you can convince them to pull the spears out in the first place...

 

[Crisagon]

UP! fix the spears

 

[black_bulldog]

I remember how pleasantly surprised I was at how good spears were in VC, then Bannerlord came out and spears were again. I never understood why Taleworlds seems to dislike spears so much that they made them practically useless. But then they made swinging polearms so damn OP.

 

[kweassa]

I recommend using the Spear Rework mod on Bannerlord Nexus. Really old, but still works on 1.2.9.

The no extra damage version makes spears actual useful weapons in melee combat, while the extra damage version makes them flat out dominate, to the point that spear-armed Vlandian Sergeants will rip straight through Legionnaries.

If you can convince them to pull the spears out in the first place...

This is a very good point. I think a real "fix" to the spears, would probably need to involve fixes in AI behavioral patterns in general.

 

[Bombcat1]

Hi. Big fan. Been a faithful customer since before Warband, when this game was something like 500MB using DirectX 7.

So that makes it about 15 years I've been eagerly waiting, expecting for an improvement to how spears, and any other weapon that prioritizes thrusting as a main component of attack, so they may be fairly represented in the 'power balance' (so to speak) of the game.

It is now 2024, and at this point, I'm kinda wondering if there's anyone in the dev roster that really hates spears, so might still think the 15-year-old excuse of "oh if we make spears anything realistic it would be too OP, so we have to make it the most useless and pointless weapon in the game" can really convince someone? Maybe newbies will fall for that? I dunno.

But dudes like me, who've grown old WITH this game, are now having some serious doubts.

Because, over the years plenty of different suggestions have been presented, and yet nobody has even got the faintest response, or show of interest, from anyone in the dev team. So we're starting to think you're happy with leaving spears, and generally spear armed troops, as the most worthless waste of time and money in the game.

At this time, I'm pretty tired of seeing my favorite weapon -- and historically the most prominent weapon of war for something like at the least 3,000 years before modernistic warfare -- being rendered down to a mess of:

(a) Only 2 attack directions, so someone can just cover their eyes and randomly choose, and would still get a 50% chance to block
(b) Having a 2-stage attack animation with a clearly telegraphed set-up motion of up-or-down which makes defense even easier
(c) Slowest of attack speeds where the same "95 attack speed" on a sword would attack about twice, when that same "95" spear would attack once
(d) Long reach having no meaning at all, as the effect of a long-shafted thrust does nothing to stop enemy advance at all
(e) The advantage of "reach" non-existent in that all it does is serve as a handling nightmare that habitually fails to deal real damage
(f) (d) and (f) causing problems where the weapon practically fails to interrupt enemy attack even if it lands first
(g) Returning to default stance after attack is so slow, that someone can just get stabbed hard, and still just walk up front to close distance

...and all of (a)~(g) making spear-armed troops worthless in the game. To the point of becoming a joke,. A meme.

...

This is grandly disappointing, that most historical martial arts practicioners, and weapons experts/historians point out the following to an explanation on why the spear was so favored as a weapon of war:

(a) The spear, with a simple, linear thrust, is the FASTEST attacking melee weapon outside of fired projectiles.
(b) Because of (a), the spear can hit you outside of your attack range, faster than your own attack
(c) (a)+(b) makes it very difficult to defend against it without a shield
(d) Even if you slip past the point, the spear wielder himself can retreat to negate opponent advance, and retract spear to set up for another attack
(e) Even if the spearhead fails to penetrate armor, the solid, lengthy shaft sticking into your ribs prevents you from closing in
(f) And (a)~(e) combined, makes it likely that the best defense against a spear, without a shield, is to simply maintain distance
(g) And the best attack against a spear, is to attempt to exploit the opening, and then when failed, run out of distance again ASAP
(h) And (f)+(g) combined, creates what is casually referred to as "reach advantage."

So usually the best defense against a spear, is to equip a shield. Against a shield, a long spear becomes a disadvantage, so the spearman himself starts using a shield as well, and then switches to shorter spears for better handling. Because now both sides start using spears and shields as well, the fighting distance closes again and shields would be clashing, with each side attempting to stab through openings around the shield with a short infantry spear.

... and voila! That's why the spear-and-shield armed soldier, becomes the iconic, most common, most widely used troop type through hundreds, thousands of years. The other factors, like "it's easier to train en masse" "it requires less training than swords," "it's cheaper," is really just complementary factors that add to the effectiveness of spear-armed troops, not the fundamentals. Fundamentally, spears were king, because they simply were that good.


So, the devs tell us "oh gee we can't have all of those depicted the way it is because that would be OP and make that weapon dominate, make others useless."

Really? For real?

Is that why you don't have any problems with the ahistoric (yes, ahistoric) swinging-polearm armed cavalry dominating the game to the level of being considered "cheat" or "easymode" troops in the game?

Is that why you have no real problems with 2-handed weapons being considered superior choices to one-handed weapons, in a game that depicts roughly the historical settings of an era when plate armor has not yet arrived, and 1h+shield weapons were still the staple at the battlefield?


Guys, come on, anyone would agree that you can't have all of the above (a)~(h) for spears for sake of game balance. Nobody disputes this. But what people like me are disputing is, is this some kind of dichotomy? Is this, worthless, useless, shameless degradation of how poorly spears are depicted in the game currently ... no, not currently... FOR 15+ YEARS ... the only way you could do it?

Where, is the middle ground?

There have been tons of ideas concerning how spears could be done better, even when only counting since early access of Bannerlord. Certainly a lot of people had great expectations that change in weapons balance and depiction would eventually follow, and using essentially the same depictions as Warband was just a placeholder. Everyone thought that. ALL spear-lovers hoped for that.

But that never came.

...

Spears need some love, man.

Even a spear unit formation that forces any unit in that formation to use spears would be better then what we currently have...which is nothing.

 

[Bombcat1]

I remember how pleasantly surprised I was at how good spears were in VC, then Bannerlord came out and spears were again. I never understood why Taleworlds seems to dislike spears so much that they made them practically useless. But then they made swinging polearms so damn OP.

They don't dislike spears, the game is coded like an 11th grade school project...they are either too lazy or unable to incorporate criticism (even constructive) into their designs. It's poor management and it shows in nearly every facet of the game. They hinder modders yet modders will be the ones who keep their sloppy mess of a game alive. We're 4 years in and still missing so much content they promised...and the way some of the systems are implemented is really really really shallow. It's a giant mud puddle...modders required to add the depth. I think management needs replaced with people who actually care about the project. It's not just spears, nearly every system in the game is half assed or boring.