Violence Kicks Ass (Suggestions for making combat more fun)

[The Pope]

--+SHORT VERSION FOR THOSE WITH SHORT ATTENTION SPANS+--
Hitting people is fun. This suggestion will make it more fun.

--+FULL VERSION+--
Mount & Blade needs a new damage system. The current on has a fair few problems - it doesn't give enough flexibility for balancing weapons and armor, it feels gamey and most importantly chipping away at an imaginary number until someone falls over is boring. My suggestion to improve this is to replace hit points with stamina, rework the armor penetration system and add wound effects which can be inflicted if a weapon does enough damage. This will add a lot of tactical decisions to combat and allow certain weapons to be effective and interesting without needing cheesy one hit kills. I'd say this is second only to AI improvement in terms of making combat more fun.

STAMINA:
The current hit point bar should be replaced with a stamina bar. This would add a lot of decision making to combat; a player would have to decide whether to press an attack on a wavering enemy or step back and defend to avoid overextending himself and becoming vulnerable to other enemies. Stamina would drop from sprinting, attacking and getting hit, though only getting hit could drop it below 25%. For an unwounded character, stamina would drop slowly and regenerate quickly. However, many wound effects would reduce your stamina regeneration and cap, so a wounded soldier would have to be far more careful with it. Particularly serious wounds (or large numbers of minor ones) could even push it into negative regeneration, representing a character finding the strength to fight on for a few moments before collapsing. The effects of fatigue would consist of slowdown, reduced damage and eventual knockdown when it hits 0. After falling down, you would lie on the ground until it regenerates back up above 0 and an enemy would be able to finish you off with a Gothic style kill animation unless your allies could help you. Also, a severely wounded character will bleed to death if degenerates below -100%.

ARMOR:
Right now, a suit of armor just has a protection value and a weight. A few more stats are necessary to allow for enough variety between different types of armor - a breastplate is just as protective as full plate, but it only protects the torso. How do you represent that in current M&B? I'd suggest giving armor a stats called deflect and soak, as well as splitting up the hit areas and allowing separate values for each one from each piece. Weapons would have damage replaced with penetration and impact. Deflection would represent the ability of armor to prevent a weapon from reaching the flesh underneath. If a hit causes enough penetrate damage to break through the weapons deflection, it has entered the flesh and the amount it beats the deflection score by represents how deep it has gone. Soak represents the ability of armor to spread a blow and counters impact damage. Blows which do enough damage to go through the soak stat have injured the target regardless of whether the actually break through the armor. Any damage of either type which beats its defence score will inflict stamina damage. Finally, it would be nice if the damage and armor types were left open so that modders could add their own damage types and protection to counter it. A mod with fireball throwing wizards should be able to add fire damage, for example. A last change I'm ambivalent about is adding in a coverage stat which adds a chance for weapons to find a weak point in the armor. On one hand, it would be incredibly infuriating to come up against an enemy practically immune to your weapons. On the other, I don't really like randomness.

WOUNDS:
Every hitbox would have a table comparing damage and hit type. After a hit, the game would apply the applicable wounds. For example a sword blow might get 15 points of penetrate damage through and 9 points of impact. This would apply the moderate penetrate effect and minor impact effect. Each wound would have effects ranging from merely playing a flinch animation to dying instantly, and a wound could apply multiple effects. An option would allow you to see wound names, for example "You have inflicted: Broken Ribs and Major Bleeding" after clobbering someone with an axe.

EXAMPLE TORSO WOUND TABLE:
1-2 - No effect, this damage only reduces stamina.
3-9 - This damage causes a flinch animation.
10-19 - Penetrate damage causes a flinch animation and mildly reduces stamina regen for the rest of the battle, impact damage causes a longer stagger animation but has no lasting effects.
20-29 - Penetrate damage causes the stagger animation and inflicts regen reduction, impact staggers, concusses (brief slowdown and blurred vision) and inflicts mild stamina regen reduction.
30-39 - Penetrate damage staggers and seriously reduces regen, impact knocks down, concusses and reduces regen.
40+ - Penetrate kills instantly with an extra gory animation, impact knocks down then inflicts a major regen reduction and concussion.

CONTROLS:
A sprint button would be handy with this new stamina system. It could replace the currently rather useless jump button, or a new button could be added for it. If jump is kept, I'd like to see it become more of a directional lunge/dodge rather than the current high jump. The use key would be fine for triggering the finishing off animation.

RIPOSTES:
This one is only tangentially related, but I like the idea so I'll stick it in anyway. While blocking, if you hold the attack button down while releasing you'll perform a quick low damage attack instead of just returning your weapon to its ready position. This would be an easy way of implementing things like shield bashes without needing extra buttons.

 

[Buxton]

I like your ideas, especially the sprint one. I definitely think at least the sprint should get into native, since if your horse gets killed in the middle of a crowd you really need to get out of there quickly and onto another horse.

I also like the stamina idea, the wounded idea you put forward makes it for me. Someone suggested before in a mod, that major wounds received in battle would hamper you until you saw a surgeon. So sort of the same, fall off a horse and twist your ankle, you can only get a half stamina bar until your better.

I don't think the wounds idea of "You have inflicted: Broken Ribs and Major Bleeding" would really be worth it as it just wouldn't. But the effects of this damage should be shown. Such as broken leg induces limping or even retreating.

But finally the idea of dodges and lunging is good, e.g. you could jump out of the way of a horse about to deal crouched lance damage. This could be used with a crouch mod too, so as you don't get decapitated whilst on foot.

Anyway, good ideas, and well explained...your Holiness.

 

[Kissaki]

STAMINA:
The current hit point bar should be replaced with a stamina bar. This would add a lot of decision making to combat; a player would have to decide whether to press an attack on a wavering enemy or step back and defend to avoid overextending himself and becoming vulnerable to other enemies. Stamina would drop from sprinting, attacking and getting hit, though only getting hit could drop it below 25%. For an unwounded character, stamina would drop slowly and regenerate quickly. However, many wound effects would reduce your stamina regeneration and cap, so a wounded soldier would have to be far more careful with it. Particularly serious wounds (or large numbers of minor ones) could even push it into negative regeneration, representing a character finding the strength to fight on for a few moments before collapsing. The effects of fatigue would consist of slowdown, reduced damage and eventual knockdown when it hits 0. After falling down, you would lie on the ground until it regenerates back up above 0 and an enemy would be able to finish you off with a Gothic style kill animation unless your allies could help you. Also, a severely wounded character will bleed to death if degenerates below -100%.

The stamina thing is an old suggestion, of course, but it seems like it's never popular to bring it up. "It's been mentioned a thousand times before; go read an old thread or stfu". I am always happy to see it brought up anew, though. I've always been for stamina implementation. I'm not so sure about it replacing hit points, though, because even someone completely refreshed may have his skull caved in by a blunt instrument.

ARMOR:
Right now, a suit of armor just has a protection value and a weight. A few more stats are necessary to allow for enough variety between different types of armor - a breastplate is just as protective as full plate, but it only protects the torso. How do you represent that in current M&B? I'd suggest giving armor a stats called deflect and soak, as well as splitting up the hit areas and allowing separate values for each one from each piece. Weapons would have damage replaced with penetration and impact. Deflection would represent the ability of armor to prevent a weapon from reaching the flesh underneath. If a hit causes enough penetrate damage to break through the weapons deflection, it has entered the flesh and the amount it beats the deflection score by represents how deep it has gone. Soak represents the ability of armor to spread a blow and counters impact damage. Blows which do enough damage to go through the soak stat have injured the target regardless of whether the actually break through the armor. Any damage of either type which beats its defence score will inflict stamina damage. Finally, it would be nice if the damage and armor types were left open so that modders could add their own damage types and protection to counter it. A mod with fireball throwing wizards should be able to add fire damage, for example. A last change I'm ambivalent about is adding in a coverage stat which adds a chance for weapons to find a weak point in the armor. On one hand, it would be incredibly infuriating to come up against an enemy practically immune to your weapons. On the other, I don't really like randomness.

I like the thought, but it sounds like it requires a more sophisticated attack system to go with it. Swords, for example, are useless against plate the way they're used in the game. If you're in full plate, the only thing dangerous about a sword is the tip. And to a lesser extent, pommel and quillon. So until we can add to the rudimentary attack system, I think the present armour system is perfectly adequate.

WOUNDS:
Every hitbox would have a table comparing damage and hit type. After a hit, the game would apply the applicable wounds. For example a sword blow might get 15 points of penetrate damage through and 9 points of impact. This would apply the moderate penetrate effect and minor impact effect. Each wound would have effects ranging from merely playing a flinch animation to dying instantly, and a wound could apply multiple effects. An option would allow you to see wound names, for example "You have inflicted: Broken Ribs and Major Bleeding" after clobbering someone with an axe.

Hmmmm... one thing that annoys me in Medieval - Total War is that troops who get "bonus vs. armoured troops" seem to do better against armoured troops than unarmoured. I'm all for the idea that an attack has two different types of damage, but only if armours have protective value against both types. No weapon does better against an armoured target than an unarmoured one. So until I have your idea further clarified, I'm afraid I'll have to abstain from voting on this one.

(Oh, and as for the sword, unless you're stabbing it would seem much more reasonable to give it 9 points of penetration damage and 15 points of impact.)

EXAMPLE TORSO WOUND TABLE:
1-2 - No effect, this damage only reduces stamina.
3-9 - This damage causes a flinch animation.
10-19 - Penetrate damage causes a flinch animation and mildly reduces stamina regen for the rest of the battle, impact damage causes a longer stagger animation but has no lasting effects.
20-29 - Penetrate damage causes the stagger animation and inflicts regen reduction, impact staggers, concusses (brief slowdown and blurred vision) and inflicts mild stamina regen reduction.
30-39 - Penetrate damage staggers and seriously reduces regen, impact knocks down, concusses and reduces regen.
40+ - Penetrate kills instantly with an extra gory animation, impact knocks down then inflicts a major regen reduction and concussion.

Now, this sort of thing I like. One wound is not equivalent to the next, and we should have more side effects than simply being knocked down if the blow is hard enough. But two wounds of the same impact to the same approximate area are not necessarily equal, either. You could have a spear totally penetrating you and exiting on the other side, and still survive because it didn't happen to pierce anything vital. Case point: Phineas Gage, whose skull was penetrated clean through by a tamping iron, and made a full recovery -- but reportedly with a radical change of personality. I would therefore suggest that each "penetration level" has a chance to have ill effects. The greater the penetration, the greater the chance. And there could also be a chance that shallow penetrations have severe consequences, just as deep penetrations may have minor consequences. But the risk should be modified accordingly.

CONTROLS:
A sprint button would be handy with this new stamina system. It could replace the currently rather useless jump button, or a new button could be added for it. If jump is kept, I'd like to see it become more of a directional lunge/dodge rather than the current high jump. The use key would be fine for triggering the finishing off animation.

I agree.

RIPOSTES:
This one is only tangentially related, but I like the idea so I'll stick it in anyway. While blocking, if you hold the attack button down while releasing you'll perform a quick low damage attack instead of just returning your weapon to its ready position. This would be an easy way of implementing things like shield bashes without needing extra buttons.

It may just be my imagination, but I seem to experience longer recovery times when my attacks are blocked. If this is the case, this is already a window for a riposte of sorts.

 

[Volkier]

Just to add onto what Kissaki said - I don't in any way support replacing hit-points with stamina, however I fully support the idea of stamina implimentation.. Both hit points and stamina should be closely linked (ie. you will take more damage if your stamina is 0, and your stamina would drain faster if you have 1HP left) but they should remain separate entities in my honest oppinion ::\

Pretty much agree with everything else. Yeah even though it's all been brought up before, at least there is plenty of thought put into the post...

 

[The Pope]

Some clarifications people asked about: yes, armor would have a value for every damage type. A suit of plate would have very high values for both, while mail would be quite good for stopping all but the pointiest of penetrating attacks but less able to spread the force of a blow.

The hit point removal is there because the wounds system makes them redundant. Your example of getting a your skull cracked despite having full stamina is a good one - if a head hit does enough damage, the wound effect would be instant death. Repeated minor wounds would stack up enough effects to render you incapable of fighting, and possibly make you bleed to death.

A sword doing more of one type than the other has as much to do with the armor worn by the target as the damage of the sword itself. A particular sort of armor might absorb most of the blunt trauma but get penetrated anyway, possibly a padded cloth?

Finally, I know a lot of these ideas were brought up before. I brought a fair few of them up before. However, the combat system is a sum of its parts and I thought all of them needed to be discussed together rather than having a thread for wounds, a thread for stamina, a thread for armor, a thread for controls etc.

 

[fisheye]

Instead of a separate sprint button, better could be a sprint command, specifically, the convention is to use a double-tap of W to mean sprint forward.

 

[Pnakotus]

I'd like to see the strength stat play a larger role: it's the only ingame measure of a character's physical toughness (beyond 'iron skin, which should really be renamed 'toughness').  Things like wounds, death and healing should somehow involve the strength stat: in this way a str-heavy character will be harder to kill than an int-heavy character, even at the same level/number of hp etc.

I'd also almost like to see an 'armour mastery' skill, to offset armour penalties.  In this way, the old 'priest in heavy plate' thing will go away, since using heavy armours will be like bows, in that they require a level of 'armour mastery' to use without various penalties (from attack speed to simple fatigue).

 

[Kissaki]

Some clarifications people asked about: yes, armor would have a value for every damage type. A suit of plate would have very high values for both, while mail would be quite good for stopping all but the pointiest of penetrating attacks but less able to spread the force of a blow.

Ah, very good, then. Carry on.

The hit point removal is there because the wounds system makes them redundant. Your example of getting a your skull cracked despite having full stamina is a good one - if a head hit does enough damage, the wound effect would be instant death. Repeated minor wounds would stack up enough effects to render you incapable of fighting, and possibly make you bleed to death.

It might be interesting to see this put into practice, though I still believe a given force of blow should not have a default damage effect. There are too many variables in real life to implement in this game (such as where on the skull, where on the torso, what direction etc.), which would have a lot to say for how much damage an attack does.

A sword doing more of one type than the other has as much to do with the armor worn by the target as the damage of the sword itself. A particular sort of armor might absorb most of the blunt trauma but get penetrated anyway, possibly a padded cloth?

Even clothes are quite difficult to cut, though they will absorb none of the blow. Tip cuts are best for cutting garment, but they don't penetrate very well, because of course you're using the tip.

 

[The Pope]

It might be interesting to see this put into practice, though I still believe a given force of blow should not have a default damage effect. There are too many variables in real life to implement in this game (such as where on the skull, where on the torso, what direction etc.), which would have a lot to say for how much damage an attack does.

It's less arbitrary and abstract than hit points, and it provides more interesting gameplay. While I can see how a random factor would increase the realism, I'd prefer to avoid randomness where possible.

 

[bluhagin]

EXAMPLE TORSO WOUND TABLE:
1-2 - No effect, this damage only reduces stamina.
3-9 - This damage causes a flinch animation.
10-19 - Penetrate damage causes a flinch animation and mildly reduces stamina regen for the rest of the battle, impact damage causes a longer stagger animation but has no lasting effects.
20-29 - Penetrate damage causes the stagger animation and inflicts regen reduction, impact staggers, concusses (brief slowdown and blurred vision) and inflicts mild stamina regen reduction.
30-39 - Penetrate damage staggers and seriously reduces regen, impact knocks down, concusses and reduces regen.
40+ - Penetrate kills instantly with an extra gory animation, impact knocks down then inflicts a major regen reduction and concussion.

you're f'n crazy dude, but i like the last one 

 

[Dwinny]

I like the thought, but it sounds like it requires a more sophisticated attack system to go with it. Swords, for example, are useless against plate the way they're used in the game. If you're in full plate, the only thing dangerous about a sword is the tip. And to a lesser extent, pommel and quillon. So until we can add to the rudimentary attack system, I think the present armour system is perfectly adequate.

Which is a good thing. Swords should mostly be ineffective against plate armour. You'd need a powerful thrusting weapon to pierce the armour, or a blunt weapon to deal concussive damage.

CONTROLS:
A sprint button would be handy with this new stamina system. It could replace the currently rather useless jump button, or a new button could be added for it. If jump is kept, I'd like to see it become more of a directional lunge/dodge rather than the current high jump. The use key would be fine for triggering the finishing off animation.

I dunno, I find jump somewhat useful for horses, when you need to avoid a large mass of infantry, and you don't have time to stop or swerve away.

It may just be my imagination, but I seem to experience longer recovery times when my attacks are blocked. If this is the case, this is already a window for a riposte of sorts.

I believe this is a feature. To prevent the attacker from being able to endlessly attack an enemy and to give the defender an opportunity for a counter attack.

Anyways, I think this would definately add more depth to M&B's gameplay. Excelent idea.

 

[Kissaki]

I like the thought, but it sounds like it requires a more sophisticated attack system to go with it. Swords, for example, are useless against plate the way they're used in the game. If you're in full plate, the only thing dangerous about a sword is the tip. And to a lesser extent, pommel and quillon. So until we can add to the rudimentary attack system, I think the present armour system is perfectly adequate.

Which is a good thing. Swords should mostly be ineffective against plate armour. You'd need a powerful thrusting weapon to pierce the armour, or a blunt weapon to deal concussive damage.

But the sword falls into a different category. It does not attempt to pierce plate, but rather the swordsman attempts to drive the tip between armoured sections, in gaps etc. Swords (which are designed for heavily armoured combat) are far from useless -- but they're used more like a grappling tool than a cutter. Against heavy armour, that is.


On a side note, I notice that in the new versions there is no interruption from no-damage attacks. I discovered this in the arena as an archer, where my puny fists did nothing to interrupt my opponent's attack.

 

[Dwinny]

But the sword falls into a different category. It does not attempt to pierce plate, but rather the swordsman attempts to drive the tip between armoured sections, in gaps etc. Swords (which are designed for heavily armoured combat) are far from useless -- but they're used more like a grappling tool than a cutter. Against heavy armour, that is.

On a side note, I notice that in the new versions there is no interruption from no-damage attacks. I discovered this in the arena as an archer, where my puny fists did nothing to interrupt my opponent's attack.

Yes, well I did say that they would be mostly ineffective. Most swords have a thrusting ability. But thrusting would be the only effective attack you could carry out.

And maybe it's just fists that don't make you flinch? Afterall, they are only fists.

 

[Kissaki]

But swords designed for armoured fighting are mostly meant for thrust. "Mostly useless" does indeed apply to a great many swords meant primarily for cutting (when facing plate), but it does not apply to swords designed for half-swording.


And about the fists, it is especially because I'm unarmed I should be able to disrupt their attacks even with non-damage. Punching someone in the body is pointless if they're wearing any kind of armour, and so one does not punch -- one pushes, pulls, grapples, in order to get the opponent off balance, pin him down etc. Or in game terms: interrupt his attack. If I stop his arm I stop his sword.

 

[shiidii]

I like the idea of a stamina damage system, but I'm not too fussed if we stick with the hit points. What I've always thought about would be to have wounds that affect your movement in gameplay. If someone gets hit in the leg, they limp. There are obvious reasons why this is unpopular. I would love to make my enemies limp, but it would be really annoying to have it happen to the first player.

 

[Lost-Lamb]

@Shiidii:YoushouldreallytryBushidoBlade

 

[The Pope]

There's a retreat button. When you press it, (or the combat round ends) wounds are cleared - this could be tied to the first aid/surgery skill. I'm not suggesting permanent injury, just something to spice up combat. There would be times where you get stuck fighting with no functional limbs, but that would be rare, brief and hilarious.

 

[redmonk]

Hmm, excellent suggestions, but here, have some healthy critism.

In my current position, i would tottaly agree with this, but if someone was just starting out new to this game, then that might make it a bit too difficult. I mean, it took me a while just to get off of my feet in native, and get a hang to the fighting system, and this would make it nearly impossible to learn the basics, because one would be constantly struggling with these new obstacles. What you are proposing has too much of an impact on the basic gameplay, and it would make the game way too hard. Only people who had mastered the basics (current combat system) would be able to learn all of this, and though it would make it much more fun, it would make it much too hard for begginers, even with the tutorial and easiest difficulty.

 

[Merentha]

And why is difficulty a bad thing?  If it is so frustrating that people stop playing immediately, then yes, its too much.  I don't see how the nuanced system proposed would induce frustration in new players.  Yes, it would be difficult, but modern games are too easy, in my opinion.

 

[redmonk]

hey, it was just a bit of constructive critisism, i was just meaning that he should make it a little bit more simple. Make it a little bit more like other popular games out there. remember that i myself would tottaly like this btw.