[Suggestion] Crossbow Revisions

[Sheepskin Seatcovers]

There is a thread currently discussing the nerf on crossbows through the last few patches.  However, this is more of a complaint than a suggestion.  Hence this thread, to further develop and bounce ideas around.

Recent thread linked:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,101954.0.html

Crossbows have been subject to change beyond most real functionality.  When I had initially interested my friends, they thought the shield penetration was a really cool, unique aspect of the game.  I agree, it was, now it happens so infrequently it is practically non-existent.  My suggestions to fix the current crossbow systems is as follows:

**I have a more modern version of a crossbow and would like to see some changes to the high end crossbows.

1)  Change equations used to calculate shield penetration to make crossbows consistently puncture low level tier shields (the free shields) and include distance between target and crossbowman (point blank shots penetrate more consistently and deal more damage when they do
2)  Crossbows are NOT bows and can fire much straighter paths when compared to arrows.
3)  Crossbow reload time is lengthy and the current animation would work only for a low resistance unit.  Siege crossbows, while having their bolt penetration increased, should also have a significant reload time increase.
4)  Factions with low shield resistance values should receive MORE frequent shield penetration from high powered crossbows (such as the Rhodock door shields)
**5)  One last note: I have noticed the crossbow's cross hair is a little off.  The bolt fires consistently slightly left of where you aim, I would appreciate it if this was corrected.

Please vote in the above poll and post suggestions down here.  Also, please note that I am not calling for piercing to imbalance the game.  High tier shields (top two) should still sponge penetration like in previous versions of mount and blade.  I think this correction would force players to more strategically choose their equipment when battling factions using crossbows.  It would also reintroduce a very unique, and quite fun aspect to this game.

Thanks in advance for all the constructive feedback.

 

[switchfoot]

I agree with the shield penetration, that was a cool feature.

 

[Mabons]

it still works on the really crappy shields.

 

[HULKSMASH]

1, 2, and 3

 

[Berserker Pride]

The current shield penetration system is actually really good.  The values are just set way too low.

Basically the current system factors in
1)Distance from the target(bolt loses damage with distance which reduces both penetration chance and damage even if the shield is penetrated.
2)Shield resistance is already the primary factor in when shields get penetrated.  Rhodok door shields are already lower resistance and already get penetrated more.

All that is really needed is a tweak to the shield penetration numbers in the module ini file to increase the chance.  Check out Urists post in the crossbows vs bows thread.

 

[Jack_Merchantson]

2)  Crossbows are NOT bows and can fire much straighter paths when compared to arrows.

Every projectile in M&B arcs according to it's initial velocity, similar to actual projectiles.

Crossbows usually have a much faster projectile than bows*, so they do, in fact, in the game, right now, fire on a noticeably** flatter arc than bows that fire a slower arrow.

Seriously, go try it out.  You have to shoot at long range for it to be really noticeable.

Based on the angles required for shots in the game, I believe, but am not certain, that all projectiles fall at a slower rate than gravity.  Shots at the highest useful angle generally go right off the map. I believe this is a compromise to allow targets to stay visible on the screen at long distance (as one would not be able to see them with the bow aimed at a 45 degree angle).

If this is true, then crossbows actually fire a lot flatter in M&B than IRL...

*not necessarily applicable to weaker crossbows vs. stronger bows
**for varying degrees of perceptive ability

 

[Sheepskin Seatcovers]

2)  Crossbows are NOT bows and can fire much straighter paths when compared to arrows.

Every projectile in M&B arcs according to it's initial velocity, similar to actual projectiles.

Crossbows usually have a much faster projectile than bows*, so they do, in fact, in the game, right now, fire on a noticeably** flatter arc than bows that fire a slower arrow.

Seriously, go try it out.  You have to shoot at long range for it to be really noticeable.

*not necessarily applicable to weaker crossbows vs. stronger bows
**for varying degrees of perceptive ability

I do know there is a slight variation, it is a little too cartoon-like as of yet.  So perhaps a tightening of those arrow speed parameters is necessary.  I was looking for a good video on youtube, but to no avail.  Believe it or not, I have played this beta for quite a while. 

 

[Sibilance]

Good suggestions here. I think they would improve the game.

 

[Wurzelmann]

To me it seems that the projectiles in M&B are ridiculously fast and powerful compared to their real worlds counterparts.

 

[Berserker Pride]

I really only support #1 Crossbows don't need a straighter trajectory(it is a lot straighter than bows already.)  Also as long as the shield penetration is set at the correct levels siege crossbow reload time is fine.  Any slower and people would get bored.  It would also be even more hell to reload while an archer was targeting you than it already is.

 

[Jack_Merchantson]

I do know there is a slight variation, it is a little too cartoon-like as of yet.  So perhaps a tightening of those arrow speed parameters is necessary.  I was looking for a good video on youtube, but to no avail.  Believe it or not, I have played this beta for quite a while.

As I said, I think if they "tighten" the projectile speeds (whatever that means), long-range shots will only be possible at targets you can't see on your screen.

On the plus side, such long range shots would almost always go over shields, so maybe it would balance out.

 

[PsykoOps]

I haven't played in awhile so I have to ask: is the 1st person view still too far to the left? That would be a priority fix in my opinion. Other than that xbows have been quite fine in the game.

 

[Archonsod]

1)  Change equations used to calculate shield penetration to make crossbows consistently puncture low level tier shields (the free shields) and include distance between target and crossbowman (point blank shots penetrate more consistently and deal more damage when they do

Already does that, the problem is the shield resistances are too high. Can't recall the exact figure, but it was something like a bolt doing (shield resistance*2)+10 damage will penetrate, and the damage the bolt deals is then reduced by 50%. Since the damage the bolt does is determined by speed bonus which attenuates with range for a crossbow, in practice the closer you are to the target, the higher the chance of penetration and the more damage inflicted when it penetrates.
It used to work fine till the shield resistances were increased to the point the majority of shields require a siege crossbow at point blank range to penetrate. Problem is, resistance also affects how much damage the shield can absorb from other hits. Lowering SR would make them less durable in combat so it might be easier to tweak the minimum threshold for penetration.

2)  Crossbows are NOT bows and can fire much straighter paths when compared to arrows.

They have a flatter trajectory. Both the crossbow and the most accurate bows are rated the same for accuracy though (99).

3)  Crossbow reload time is lengthy and the current animation would work only for a low resistance unit.  Siege crossbows, while having their bolt penetration increased, should also have a significant reload time increase.

They already take longer to reload than other crossbows. I'm not sure they could stand much more of an increase while still remaining viable; as it is I think most players prefer to stick with the heavy crossbow outside of a siege defence or similar stationary play modes.

 

[Faranox]

I had noticed my shots going too far left...
Also I agree that shield penetration could be fiddled with. Currently if an opponent doesn't have a free shield, it feels like you can only hope to reduce their shield's durability.

 

[Outlawed]

My only real problem with shield penetration is that a line of skilled xbowmen would now SLAUGHTER anything that comes close. If bolts will puncture shields (low end) then 3 or so bolts will break a high end one. Xbow lines would be fatal and would be worse than Khergit HA spam.

 

[PsykoOps]

I had noticed my shots going too far left...
Also I agree that shield penetration could be fiddled with. Currently if an opponent doesn't have a free shield, it feels like you can only hope to reduce their shield's durability.

Shots go on target but the view itself is too far to the left. This is shots from older version. Not sure if it's still the same. http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,88278.msg2279759.html#msg2279759

 

[AoC]

My real problem with your ****ty poll is that it does not allow me to say CROSSBOW NEED A NERF, NOT BUFF.

First thing would be increasing reload time, say 1.5 of current reload animation.

 

[Wurzelmann]

I'd like to see more realistic and less fantasyish ranged weapons. Arrows and bolts move too fast and penetrate armour even at a high range.

 

[mouthnhoof]

Shield penetration is a bad game mechanic as it is and dubious when realism is concerned. If anything would penetrate a shield that is more than a balsa covered with the front page of the NY Times is a javelin. I can already hear the cries if that is implemented.

Shield penetration combined with the unlimited "ready" time of the xbow mean that there is no way to approach a group of xbowmen. The only thing to do is to jump and jitter around like bunnies on acid hoping that they miss. Which they won't because they can wait as long as needed and shoot from a range they cannot possibly miss. Shields are there for a reason. The shields do not give full cover anyway. Shields do not cover from cross-fire. Crossbowmen are about equal to infantry in stats and get shields themselves. Bad to the game, bad idea.

 

[Phonemelter]

Do they have a greater chance of penetrating as the object comes closer? If not, I think it should be that way.