Limiting high tier troops to reflect medieval reality

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Urzahil

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In real life, medieval armies were largely levies. High level armor and weapons weren't affordable or accessible to anyone who wasn't noble and wealthy especially since Europe didn't field standing armies until late into the Hundred Years War that the French started fielding a standing army. Prior to that, medieval armies were raised from levies with a small percentage of the army being nobility and well armed/armored retainers. And atop that, medieval armies were VERY expensive in upkeep - for instance it was Edward I's defaulting on loans from Italian bankers that created the term "bankruptcy" (breaking the benches(banks)) in funding his wars with Wales and Scotland. Leveling up tiers should be very prohibitively expensive especially past Tier 3. This is important since archery has been heavily nerfed in mods because it's basically overpowered in vanilla and relies on levy heavy armies to be even effective. (i.e. Khuzaits) even though historically the Mongols were nearly unbeatable in battles - it took the death of a Khan and the kulturai afterwards recalling the Mongol leaders to attend it to halt a planned invasion of all of Western Europe in it's track as well as later splitting the Mongol Empire into four different kingdoms - the IIkhanate, the Golden Horde, the Changatai and the Yuan Hordes.
 
I'll look into that mod. Regardless I'm using Improved Garrisons 3.0 and Blood, **** and Iron mods and limiting tier increase to 3 at the most in an effort to limit higher tier troops.
 
This is important since archery has been heavily nerfed in mods because it's basically overpowered in vanilla and relies on levy heavy armies to be even effective.

If you force levy-heavy armies, archery goes right back to being OP, which defeats the reason for those nerfs in the first place.

At any rate, this is why major mod changes should be packaged together. Adjusting one thing has knockon effects elsewhere.
 
Archers are already pretty OP in my view, and this is the thing, I remember that Mexxico said that after giving the AI some small cheats for passively training troops, recruits average is 30-40% now in most of AI parties. If we sum archers and two hander troops, most of AI parties have >50% unshielded units by design.

The problem is that archers are currently balanced keeping in mind a rock paper or scissors system for captain mode where high tier shielded units are able to defend properly against archers, while shock infantry can make use of map to keep safe against archers, or make some team play to advance behind shielded infantry, if not they get wrecked by archers in seconds. The good thing is that if shock infantry gets used properly, it wrecked shielded units. This system is nice in captain mode but it is pretty bad for SP. it is simply not possible to keep all the army protected if most of units are unshielded, so the poor AI has not much to do against this.

Having said that, maybe recruits should get shields or who knows, but the current system does not work at all in singleplayer and something has to change.
 
BTW, while I do not agree with limiting much options in sandbox games, I like to see mixed armies with a lot of low tier units. I also think that this reflects much better medieval reality as OP says.

I do not like to see AI armies with tons of T5 and T7 units and fortunately this rarely happens. On the other hand, as the player it is pretty usual to have 90-100% elite armies... Mostly because economy is not a problem at all, and because it is pretty easy not lose only 0-5% of units as much when fighting similar or even stronger AI armies. The game is currently not challenging at all due to ranged units wrecking everything.
 
BTW, while I do not agree with limiting much options in sandbox games, I like to see mixed armies with a lot of low tier units. I also think that this reflects much better medieval reality as OP says.

I do not like to see AI armies with tons of T5 and T7 units and fortunately this rarely happens. On the other hand, as the player it is pretty usual to have 90-100% elite armies... Mostly because economy is not a problem at all, and because it is pretty easy not lose only 0-5% of units as much when fighting similar or even stronger AI armies. The game is currently not challenging at all due to ranged units wrecking everything.
I somehow think removing troop limits and significantly increasing the costs of upgrading and maintaining higher tier units would be the key to getting something realistic in a more natural way.

I like having an army of pure elites, but I would not mind seeing hordes of lowly levies as well. Imo, the only reason we are incentivised to make these elite armies is because of army limits. Without them, we wouldn't feel the need to make each and every troop count.
 
I like having an army of pure elites, but I would not mind seeing hordes of lowly levies as well. Imo, the only reason we are incentivised to make these elite armies is because of army limits. Without them, we wouldn't feel the need to make each and every troop count.

Instead of hard party limits, just have a morale penalty per troop, so that Leadership could offset it (right now, past about Leadership 75, it locks your Morale to 100 at all times) and allow players who want to run numbers over quality to really lean into that playstyle while Stewardship would increase the 'natural' soft limit?
 
Instead of hard party limits, just have a morale penalty per troop, so that Leadership could offset it (right now, past about Leadership 75, it locks your Morale to 100 at all times) and allow players who want to run numbers over quality to really lean into that playstyle while Stewardship would increase the 'natural' soft limit?
I like it. If limits are removed, Leadership needs to boost something else. I was kind of thinking that it could make troops more affordable, but then I remembered Stewardship which would also need a change.

Sadly, there's no chance that TW will implement such a thing. Once again, this is a job for modders...
 
I personally would like to see slightly beefed up AI parties. Maybe have a the ratio of troop tiers change based on clan level or amount of influence they have.
 
If you force levy-heavy armies, archery goes right back to being OP, which defeats the reason for those nerfs in the first place.

At any rate, this is why major mod changes should be packaged together. Adjusting one thing has knockon effects elsewhere.

I use the Realistic Battles mod which does nerf archery, but you're correct that adjustments have far reaching effects throughout the game and was able to see how that affected the Khuzaits in particular. They were able to hold their own, but that's about it which is decidedly un-Mongol-like. XD
 
I use the Realistic Battles mod which does nerf archery, but you're correct that adjustments have far reaching effects throughout the game and was able to see how that affected the Khuzaits in particular. They were able to hold their own, but that's about it which is decidedly un-Mongol-like. XD

Realistic Battle Mod actually buffs archers. T5 units in that mod are even more broken than in vanilla for some weird reason.
 
This is important since archery has been heavily nerfed in mods because it's basically overpowered in vanilla and relies on levy heavy armies to be even effective. (i.e. Khuzaits) even though historically the Mongols were nearly unbeatable in battles - it took the death of a Khan and the kulturai afterwards recalling the Mongol leaders to attend it to halt a planned invasion of all of Western Europe in it's track as well as later splitting the Mongol Empire into four different kingdoms - the IIkhanate, the Golden Horde, the Changatai and the Yuan Hordes.


It's a bit more complex than that. Horse archers historically struggled against large armies of massed archers. Lansing squared works against them.



Archers are already pretty OP in my view, and this is the thing, I remember that Mexxico said that after giving the AI some small cheats for passively training troops, recruits average is 30-40% now in most of AI parties. If we sum archers and two hander troops, most of AI parties have >50% unshielded units by design.

The problem is that archers are currently balanced keeping in mind a rock paper or scissors system for captain mode where high tier shielded units are able to defend properly against archers, while shock infantry can make use of map to keep safe against archers, or make some team play to advance behind shielded infantry, if not they get wrecked by archers in seconds. The good thing is that if shock infantry gets used properly, it wrecked shielded units. This system is nice in captain mode but it is pretty bad for SP. it is simply not possible to keep all the army protected if most of units are unshielded, so the poor AI has not much to do against this.

Having said that, maybe recruits should get shields or who knows, but the current system does not work at all in singleplayer and something has to change.

Yep - this is an issue.

I think the solution would be to split off multiplayer and single player more so than they are right now.

Multiplayer will pursue multiplayer balance at all costs, and single player should be more oriented towards a campaign and realism.
 
In real life, medieval armies were largely levies. High level armor and weapons weren't affordable or accessible to anyone who wasn't noble and wealthy especially since Europe didn't field standing armies until late into the Hundred Years War that the French started fielding a standing army. Prior to that, medieval armies were raised from levies with a small percentage of the army being nobility and well armed/armored retainers. And atop that, medieval armies were VERY expensive in upkeep - for instance it was Edward I's defaulting on loans from Italian bankers that created the term "bankruptcy" (breaking the benches(banks)) in funding his wars with Wales and Scotland. Leveling up tiers should be very prohibitively expensive especially past Tier 3. This is important since archery has been heavily nerfed in mods because it's basically overpowered in vanilla and relies on levy heavy armies to be even effective. (i.e. Khuzaits) even though historically the Mongols were nearly unbeatable in battles - it took the death of a Khan and the kulturai afterwards recalling the Mongol leaders to attend it to halt a planned invasion of all of Western Europe in it's track as well as later splitting the Mongol Empire into four different kingdoms - the IIkhanate, the Golden Horde, the Changatai and the Yuan Hordes.

There's a lot of misconceptions in this post. I will correct them based on the small, but relevant reading I've done on the subject.

Bannerlord is based on the 600-1000 time period. In that time period, levied soldiers were mainly used for self-defense in their local area, rather than general travelling around with the lord all over the place all year round (which would have been very impractical for farmers who had crops to tend to back home!). When it came to offensive armies that travelled around with the lord like in Bannerlord to invade new territory and make raids, it was professional soldiers. The Frankish warlords in Western Europe fielded warbands called the comitatus who were dedicated warriors, often fairly well-equipped cavalrymen, who went out on raids while the levies were only occasionally used in invading armies. If you look at the Norman conquests of Italy, you will read about armies of just professional soldiers and mercenaries conducting the invasions. Another example from Anglo-Saxon England is the Fyrd: "It was the responsibility of the shire fyrd to deal with local raids. The king could call up the national militia to defend the kingdom, however in the case of hit and run raids, particularly by Vikings, problems with communication and raising supplies meant that the national militia could not be mustered quickly enough, so it was rarely summoned." In short, I think the militia who appear when you raid villages already properly represents the main real-life role of peasant levies.

Regarding equipment, quality equipment that T4 troops wield in Bannerlord, such as mail armor, was not by totally "inaccessible" for people in the "middle class" of Frankish society. The Lex Ribuaria, the manuscripts which laid out the legal code of the Franks, state the value of a shield and spear at 2 solidi. A mail tunic was worth 12 solidi. For comparison, the fine for a slave seducing a maidservant at that time was 3 solidi (while the fine for a freeman was 15 solidi). If even slaves could theoretically be expected to own 3 solidi to pay a fine, then your average person on a soldier's wage could probably muster up 12 solidi at some point in their lives as a one-time investment! So I don't think leveling past T3 should be prohibitively expensive.

The Mongols were not nearly unbeatable in battles, and did suffer multiple defeats. It's a common misconception that the planned invasion was caused by the death of the Khan, when this is unsure and very unlikely. In fact, the message of the Khan's death wouldn't have even had time to reach them by the time they had already given up and left, and the Mongol forces were not aware the Khan had died, according to historians writing at that time. Further invasions of Europe were called off because after the disastrous failures of the third and second invasions of Poland and Hungary, much of Eastern Europe had learned that stone castles, trained crossbowmen, and heavily armored knights could defeat Mongol armies in battle. The Mongols were stalled on the plains and just waited for a few seasons before deciding to go home.

Another thing to note about the Mongols is that they actually contained a very large heavy cavalry element, roughly a third of the army. Their horse archers would attack and retreat repeatedly to either wear down the enemy or bait them into a charge. Then, the heavy cavalry would make a charge to deal the decisive blow.

TL;DR: If you want to go by history, the game's tier distribution already represents real life pretty well, maybe could do with some small tweaks. I do agree archers are overpowered in vanilla, though this is more due to armor being underpowered and providing too little protection.
 
they could at least implement the mechanic and make it not included in native. But having that mechanic pre-set for modders could do wonders.
 
I somehow think removing troop limits and significantly increasing the costs of upgrading and maintaining higher tier units would be the key to getting something realistic in a more natural way.

I like having an army of pure elites, but I would not mind seeing hordes of lowly levies as well. Imo, the only reason we are incentivised to make these elite armies is because of army limits. Without them, we wouldn't feel the need to make each and every troop count.
Agree. I have always disliked the fact that with the price of a single high tier armor from the shop can instead buy you an entire army of elite troops because of the low recruitment, upgrade and upkeep costs.

I like how CK3 has really expensive mercenary armies that you can't maintain forever, and levies which slowly make your vassals angry at you if you have them raised too long. Isn't it unrealistic to have massive armies just walking about in peacetime in bannerlord? It should be more expensive, and the game needs more money sinks so it would serve that aswell.

There should be some system for needing to own the armor to be able to upgrade the unit, like the horses are for the high tier knights. And then the armor would return to you if the soldier dies.

But as you said yourself...

Sadly, there's no chance that TW will implement such a thing. Once again, this is a job for modders...
 
Agree. I have always disliked the fact that with the price of a single high tier armor from the shop can instead buy you an entire army of elite troops because of the low recruitment, upgrade and upkeep costs.

I like how CK3 has really expensive mercenary armies that you can't maintain forever, and levies which slowly make your vassals angry at you if you have them raised too long. Isn't it unrealistic to have massive armies just walking about in peacetime in bannerlord? It should be more expensive, and the game needs more money sinks so it would serve that aswell.

There should be some system for needing to own the armor to be able to upgrade the unit, like the horses are for the high tier knights. And then the armor would return to you if the soldier dies.

But as you said yourself...
for this kind of mechanic the game would have to be drastically changed, to it's core even. Not a very smart move for TW, and quite unpractical game-play wise.
The only mechanic that could be adopted to fix this would be for TW to have developed the entirety of Bannerlord using 1257ad's lance system as the main reference. (it's a mod for WB, great one at that, to me the best mod in terms of general mechanics for M&B), but they never intended to go for something like that (it does displeases me, but in the end it's a matter of habit, the more used you get to the game the less you want it to be different, so to speak).

Thing is that I still believe that Bannerlord is gonna be a game that gets me bored fast, and I strongly think that it will need mods to be actually good, otherwise it'll simply be mediocre, and I won't be playing it much, most likely. It's a sad thing, but then again, Warband was the same, Warband without Diplomacy mod was just garbage, excessively boring and nonsensical.
 
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