Italian Peninsula Factions

[DrTomas]

Well to tell the truth I'm not to familiar with the Italy situation too much. I know there were much of seperate city-states that liked to poke each other with the pointy end. Other then that - not much. I'd like not to change the current political situation, but to add more stuff in it. What I mean is, Genova should remain as a part of HRE and Sicily should be as it is. Papacy can have more towns/cities/lords if needed - as it's going to become a bit more active faction.

I see a couple ways to do the rest of the Italy:
1. Add Venice as a faction and the rest less make as an rebel factions, that would do nothing but have a village and a castle and spawn warbands that would do nothing but fight each other(I can make a script that would simulate there war declerations on each other).
2. Insted of Venice go total war approach and make "Italy city-states" factions. That would cover the rest of the states into one faction. Possible to make some events in the future to simulate the conflicts between them.
3. Don't know.

I'm open to suggestions tho.

 

[ntb_15]

I think the best approach would be to add a new Venice faction only. The political situation of the rest of the cities states when simplified were either supporters of the HRE or an ally of the papacy.

 

[Ogaburan]

I think the best approach would be to add a new Venice faction only. The political situation of the rest of the cities states when simplified were either supporters of the HRE or an ally of the papacy.

Exactly, In northern Italy the Ghibellines, who supported the emperor (HRE), were more prominent than the Guelfs, who sided with the pope.

So all these, independent states.. were just puppet states of greater powers.

As for Venice;
"Renier Zeno was elected doge of Venice in 1253, and three years later he supported the papal crusade against the marauding Ezzelino da Romano."
So i guess he was still alive in 1257.

Thing is, the Doge already carried the titles of Duke of Dalmatia and Duke of Istria.
Both are in modern day croatia, a mod like this should represent the power Venice had abroad.

Istria.

I would add Pula as a city\castle with Pazin and/or Porec. As they were.. at least around in the 12 century.
OR
Make it a village of Venice itself.
With Chioggia.

Or you can just ignore it and add just Dalmatia as it is far bigger.

Spalato castle with sabanico as its village.

Venice itself was a major center of trade, but it wasn't a huge landowner in Italy itself.
As shown here;

Basically i dont see any Venice vassals, it all belonged to the Doge, who was basically elected by the rich and powerful traders of the city.

Apparently it also got hold of the (Greek) island of Candia as early as 1204!
According to an Italian recollection of things;

Game terms; Just a one town island;

Venice should be added as an independent state, as it was actually very powerful in the 12 century.

 

[GradiusCaelius]

Some of those areas look a little small to divide up. Maybe just add in Crete and the Adriatic coast for them.

 

[DrTomas]

Venice should be added as an independent state, as it was actually very powerful in the 12 century.

Yeah, but the mod is set 13th century, so you know.

Papacy is back as a faction. Currently inactive in politics between the AI kingdoms.

 

[Alambar]

I am Italian and the best thing to do(IMHO),is to add Duchy of Tuscany with Florence and Pisa as major cities,add some villages and forts to the Papal States in the east of peninsula and at last Venice and the dominions that belong to it.

 

[Ogaburan]

Venice should be added as an independent state, as it was actually very powerful in the 12 century.

Yeah, but the mod is set 13th century, so you know.

Papacy is back as a faction. Currently inactive in politics between the AI kingdoms.

lol, slip of the tong.
Its is, for some reason, always hard for me to remember that YYXX is actually YY-1 century... and not YY.
Yeah... im one of those... 

Still the info and pics i gave are accurate to 1257...

 

[wiskey78]

I think Venice and two different Italian City states factions representing the Welfs and the Jellybeans would work quite well. Pisa and Milan being the main Ghibelline supporters with Genoa and Florance being Welf. All these factions could be some sort of non-traditional faction with a Ruler who owns all the land and mercenary war bands led by vassals who don't own land (but stay loyal) making up the armies and you would not be granted land as a vassal of them but instead receive a large wage.

 

[DrTomas]

I think Venice and two different Italian City states factions representing the Welfs and the Jellybeans would work quite well. Pisa and Milan being the main Ghibelline supporters with Genoa and Florance being Welf. All these factions could be some sort of non-traditional faction with a Ruler who owns all the land and mercenary war bands led by vassals who don't own land (but stay loyal) making up the armies and you would not be granted land as a vassal of them but instead receive a large wage.

Jellybeans?

Again, I'm not changing allready set up factions(in this case Genova). Untraditional design as one ruler rules all land and all the other vasals have no land is also not an option, as it would need to rewrite many AI scripts. I'd rather not - we must stick with native design(I'm saying this alot today) while representing the Italian factions.

 

[Othienka]

I think Venice and two different Italian City states factions representing the Welfs and the Jellybeans would work quite well. Pisa and Milan being the main Ghibelline supporters with Genoa and Florance being Welf. All these factions could be some sort of non-traditional faction with a Ruler who owns all the land and mercenary war bands led by vassals who don't own land (but stay loyal) making up the armies and you would not be granted land as a vassal of them but instead receive a large wage.

Jellybeans?

Again, I'm not changing allready set up factions(in this case Genova). Untraditional design as one ruler rules all land and all the other vasals have no land is also not an option, as it would need to rewrite many AI scripts. I'd rather not - we must stick with native design(I'm saying this alot today) while representing the Italian factions.

Couldn't you just make those mercenaries not lords only in-name, but maybe they could actually hold land/fiefs [at least if we didn't thought of them actually owning them in the noble way] and just that they actually are in-charge of the protection/patrolling of that area/castle/town?

 

[DrTomas]

Why not get some actual lords for the factions? What, there's only 1 important person in Venice(or any other city-state)? Wouldn't the mercenary force be lead not by some hired captain, but by an important person. Say someone who hired them or his relative/friend/comrad?

 

[Ogaburan]

What I meant by "no vassals" is that we/you need to make them up.

 

[ntb_15]

Alright, some info i gathered about the venetions from googling and from the Ograburan's above post, not much info about them specific to this time, and almost nothing about their nobles, most of the nobles i found were future doges who were alive and of age at this time.
I have also put my suggestions for the fief assignment but they are not based on any historical information, another approach would be to give all of them to the Doge.


Doge:
Ranieri Zen was the doge at this time, should get the fiefs Venice and chioggia and maybe the other unassigned ones

Nobles:
1. Lorenzo Tiepolo, is a future doge of venezia, but at the time of the mod is a naval commander, Fief: Pula.

2. Jacopo Contarini, also a future doge, not much information about him. He doesnt seem to be that influential, Fief: Chioggia

3. Giovanni_Dandolo, also a future doge, his date of birth is not known, but he died on 1289, so he should be around 20-30 during 1257. gets Candia

4. Angelo Sanudo, was a Duke of the Archipelago, is probably more of an ally/vassal of latin empire than venice, but i did find some venetion ties. I am not sure if he should be included. If he is included then i guess he gets the two villages tied to candia.


Fiefs
1. Venice (City)
Villages: Caorle (was an important city, with a cathedral at this time) and Chioggia (another town)

2. Candia (city in crete) - Was an important asset of venice, for its trade with the middle-east.
Villages: ? and ? (No idea, maybe some of the greek islands)

3. Pula (castle)
Village: Poreč

4. Spalato (castle)
Village: Ragusa

 

[DrTomas]

Allrigh, added it in. We have 11 placeholders swarming about right now.

Need more castles, atleast 2. But 4 would be better.

 

[kuauik]

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CONTENTS.htm
this site should help

 

[DrTomas]

I am Italian

Do you make pizza? I do - I like pizza!

The best thing to do(IMHO),is to add Duchy of Tuscany with Florence and Pisa as major cities,add some villages and forts to the Papal States in the east of peninsula and at last Venice and the dominions that belong to it.

Bad news that I'm probably going to add Tuscany. 
I need a fort and a village for it at the Eastern side for the Papacy.

As far as I understand Sardinia belonged to Pisa and such to the Duchy of Tuscany at 1257? How about Corsica, did it also belonged to Pisa? Were pizza invented in Pisa?

 

[DrTomas]

I feel like talking to myself. Or am I just inpatient?

So duke of Tuscany was who? Or should I make it Duca Tommaso?

 

[HerrPanzerCardinal]

DrThomas just replying to  tell you that your words are not falling on deaf ears, but after numerous searches I have come up empty with a precise and correct answer.  Tuscany seems awfully fragmented for the exact period of the mod.  Although I did find this site http://www.friesian.com/histindx.htm that seems chockfull of cool information on kings and leaders all over the world, but nothing precisely what we are looking for.  Even has cool royal lines such as http://www.friesian.com/history/spain-3.gif.  Sorry I could not be more helpful

 

[kuauik]

I feel like talking to myself. Or am I just inpatient?

So duke of Tuscany was who? Or should I make it Duca Tommaso?

why  you want to ad Tuscany,it would be more apropriate to ad Lombard league,with the capital of Firenze,anyway i'll take a look at this and sent you list of lords soon,how many you need?btw the faction should be hostile to Sicilians ,so we can have fights with Guelps againts the Gibellines

 

[DrTomas]

Because there was a big empty space in western Italy. I think I'll just leave it like that - screw it.

Did it the other way. I find doing factions realy annoying and boring. Hopefully this will be the end of it.