It needs to be stated.

[mangalore]

You are legitimately arguing that anyone should be allowed to make people pay for something that has a risk of never being completed. Don't go there. Ever. It is literally illegal in countries. Also plays in part to arguing that businesses should be allowed to defraud people of money promising a game or product that may never be finished. You should be intelligent enough not to bark up that tree.

You seem to be missing the point here.

I am not arguing that, Early Access is that. You give someone money without knowing whether they will ever finish that. If you are not okay with that and think it is a racket, don't buy such games. It is also not defrauding by anyone because the product openly is tagged as unfinished so do not make BS legal claims you do not understand. It is you as a buyer to understand the risks of signing a purchase contract. In this case the risk can entail that the company goes bankrupt before you ever see your finished product and you have no right for refund. You give them money for the unfinished product as is in the hope they use the money to finish it. You do not know and you have no legal claim for reclamation.

This is not a kickstarter. There is no investor protection or anything. You are not an investor, you are a buyed accepting an unfinished product in the state it is in right now for the price they asked.

 

[Mawotb]

I'd rather frame it as taking 'what is' and comparing it to what 'you want it to be'. Expectations differ from people to people after all.
Maybe I really really like how hideouts are working right now and I do not want that to change. Pretty sure that I would be a minority with that.

You just proved exactly what I said. It is your critical view that you like 'what is' compared to what it 'could be'.
/DoubleFacePalm

 

[Mawotb]

You seem to be missing the point here.

I am not arguing that, Early Access is that. You give someone money without knowing whether they will ever finish that. If you are not okay with that and think it is a racket, don't buy such games. It is also not defrauding by anyone because the product openly is tagged as unfinished so do not make BS legal claims you do not understand. It is you as a buyer to understand the risks of signing a purchase contract. In this case the risk can entail that the company goes bankrupt before you ever see your finished product and you have no right for refund. You give them money for the unfinished product as is in the hope they use the money to finish it. You do not know and you have no legal claim for reclamation.

This is not a kickstarter. There is no investor protection or anything. You are not an investor, you are a buyed accepting an unfinished product in the state it is in right now for the price they asked.

you clearly don't know your international laws or international constitutional laws. I literally operate under the full expectation of my own countries laws that what I pay for is exactly what I get. This country has already had lawsuits on this topic. You clearly don't understand that developing a game is always a risk, especially of in-completion or unforeseen complications, this puts you at risk of backlash. You should read the Australian constitution on Consumer Rights and Contract Law. Not to mention the Lawsuits relating to it and game development. You assume that TW said they are struggling for money and made it known they are at risk and have made clear their intentions. You are literally arguing that a failing business should be allowed to practice unethical and at times illegal practices because they cant own up to their failure. You are collapsing two very different things without addressing both. No, I am an investor in the development towards a completed and acceptable product /service. You speak as if an authority whilst invalidating all previous legal action on this very tangent. Everything always is at risk of critical evaluation and even legal follow up. TW already advertised a hard release two years ago, their excuse was we aren't ready - an admirable and honest evaluation. Now the game is still incomplete and I have not seen anywhere admission of financial hardship - mind you - exactly the legal precedent to argue a refund. This is no different than investing in stocks. You failed to succeed? im going to expect to be able to pull my funds at any time knowing you made a promise and didnt deliver. This is why so many businesses fail internationally, failing to understand specific market cultures and laws.

 

[maelos61]

I feel completely the same way as OP. I loved warband, I love Bannerlord, but if a mod/dev comes in here and tells me he played the game extensively, I'll never believe him. I've been following mostly the steam forums and dear god it's a ****fest. Sure, there's the normal complaints of people who seemingly never played Warband and thus just don't like this type of game or stupid minor complaints like auto-blocking, but sometimes you find actual issues that make you go: any amount of testing would've fixed this. There are modders out there literally making fixes and they've made these fixes within 3 days of the game coming out and it's honestly sad. To many of the complaint using 'It's EA' is a valid defence, even if they've been developing the game for years, but for other issues it doesn't work. A large amount of units have the wrong stats. How can such a basic thing, that literally anyone who follows a youtube tutorial can fix, still be in the game? Just check this mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/53?tab=description . Just look at the Khuzait lancers. This and the 45 saves-bug just make me apprehensive.

I'm hopeful for the game and I've had a blast playing it, but damn am I disillusioned.
(edited to be less aggressive and whiny, but my point still stands)

 

[Dabos37]

Just want to say that Bannerlord in its current state is much more enjoyable for me than Warband. People could say: sure, because Warband is a 10 years old Game!!! But the the thing is that before Bannerlord, I was strugling to find games which I could enjoy more than Warband.

Having said this, Bannerlord still needs tons of work and polish and there are tons of things that should be fixed and added.

Lastly, I can understand why TW has sold this game at full price, TW probably need more money to continue devolping this game and releasing the EA at a much lower price would mean huge losses because most of the people had in mind to buy the Game the first day.

 

[Mawotb]

snip

1. You can't even understand what was said.
2. You shouldn't be defending something that isn't yours.
3. TW can handle themselves.

People are arguing in defense of 'Early Access' without accepting that Early Access does not ever include an explanation of what is missing. This is a reoccurring thing that people argue about. I don't have to refund because a refund doesn't provide a method for addressing the issue. Posting on a forum saying hey this is all missing, whats being done about it, to just be met with tards screaming early access. It's completely and utterly dumb and you just read into a complete tangent to shut a kid up exactly on this point. Early access is irrelevant when there is no transparency about how insanely incomplete the game is. On top of that there is no information readily available about the devs stance on this. Yes they said EA, which means bugs and lack of optimisation. People wanted a release to see where the hell they are up to. They are not in a good spot. They chose to focus on certain issues and ignore others. People are sick of waiting. Myself included. I had to organise the purchase just to see where things were and don't like how things are looking. Do I instantly refund titles? NO, because I hope to everything that doesn't exist that they pull out their fingers and get it done. Everyone is still being disappointing. Stop justifying the invalidation of peoples dissatisfaction of the turtle pace of a development company and game. People make bad decisions and are fair game to get called out on it. Period.

 

[IsvRada]

The ignorance on how software development works in this thread is astounding.

True words.

Is sooo easy to just talk from a player perspective, easy and comfortable.

 

[Aragon150]

I don't even dev I've just modded enough to know you can break everything with a simple typo. This kind of data is amazing for devs I've seen way worse games be full releases and this WAY better than most EA's on steam

 

[Mawotb]

I don't even dev I've just modded enough to know you can break everything with a simple typo. This kind of data is amazing for devs I've seen way worse games be full releases and this WAY better than most EA's on steam

with things like fallout76 and other similar titles, this isnt hard to relegate to a statement of the obvious.... especially when essentially all of their existing content was already functional in a previous title.... the only truly brownie points is for making a new game engine and physics based combat - ie reach. still a long way from optimised though.

 

[Aragon150]

There's a lot of new systems that have to be balanced. It's not just a new game engine and physics. It just wasn't given more tlc before EA. Policies actually exist and some actually work.

 

[mangalore]

you clearly don't know your international laws or international constitutional laws. I literally operate under the full expectation of my own countries laws that what I pay for is exactly what I get. ...

And you apparently did not read the early access product information.

And zip that international law / constitutional law BS, buying a game does not tangent any of it. At best you could get a theoretical civilian case out of it... which is unlikely as the early access product information is pretty clear on things.

​

I get if you dislike a game and don't want to play it but obviously you have a very misguided idea what early access and how risky it is because otherwise you should not have bought into that kind of scheme. Maybe keep off stocks, too.​

 

[Keram]

you clearly don't know your international laws or international constitutional laws. I literally operate under the full expectation of my own countries laws that what I pay for is exactly what I get. This country has already had lawsuits on this topic. You clearly don't understand that developing a game is always a risk, especially of in-completion or unforeseen complications, this puts you at risk of backlash. You should read the Australian constitution on Consumer Rights and Contract Law. Not to mention the Lawsuits relating to it and game development. You assume that TW said they are struggling for money and made it known they are at risk and have made clear their intentions. You are literally arguing that a failing business should be allowed to practice unethical and at times illegal practices because they cant own up to their failure. You are collapsing two very different things without addressing both. No, I am an investor in the development towards a completed and acceptable product /service. You speak as if an authority whilst invalidating all previous legal action on this very tangent. Everything always is at risk of critical evaluation and even legal follow up. TW already advertised a hard release two years ago, their excuse was we aren't ready - an admirable and honest evaluation. Now the game is still incomplete and I have not seen anywhere admission of financial hardship - mind you - exactly the legal precedent to argue a refund. This is no different than investing in stocks. You failed to succeed? im going to expect to be able to pull my funds at any time knowing you made a promise and didnt deliver. This is why so many businesses fail internationally, failing to understand specific market cultures and laws.

Isn't that precisely why almost every game in EA development has warnings plastered all over them that you should not buy it if you worry you are not getting what you expect? Sure, I would expect that there would be lawsuits all over the place already if the conditions give you any ground to file a claim. We have plenty of failed early access games, some that even reek of a deceptive trade practice lawsuit incoming. But I cannot find any real precedence for an EA game with a lawsuit out there, neither international nor in my country (Germany).

The game towns for example. This was one of Steams Greenlight releases, before early access was even a thing on Steam. It went to eternal development limbo quickly after raking in about 200.000 USD I think and the steam reviews speak for themselves. Still seems to be in a somewhat playable state apparently, maybe that's why nothing big came out of it.

There are games out there that go EA for deceptive reasons and it's those that I would consider having ground for a lawsuit, as long as it obvious something is not right with the game.

Others simply do not match up to their goals. But those never did anything to deceive you. They offered you to get access to an unfinished build of the game, usually with reduced price, just so you can support them early, but with the risk in mind that the end product might not become what you want it to be. They simply failed, but that alone would never hold ground in a court, especially if they made it clear that you accept the risk of them not finishing the product.
DayZ's short description during EA time simply stated all caps that it is unfinished and you should not buy this game unless you want support the developer early on, just to make this clear and stay on the safe side.

Not saying that you could not try to file a legal claim but I would find it hard to argue for it, at least not on grounds of breach of contract.

Bannerlords start for EA is really bumpy, not gonna argue against it. I would have expected more news on how TW is going to proceed, what transpired the last 8 years, see a roadmap, more direct info from the devs themselves, that kinda stuff. Also the buggy mess the game started in. But I do not think it is as catastrophic as people make it out to be, at least with how TW reacted to the bugs in the last few days. There are EA games out there that start with a lot less game.

 

[Mawotb]

And you apparently did not read the early access product information.

And zip that international law / constitutional law BS, buying a game does not tangent any of it. At best you could get a theoretical civilian case out of it... which is unlikely as the early access product information is pretty clear on things.

​

I get if you dislike a game and don't want to play it but obviously you have a very misguided idea what early access and how risky it is because otherwise you should not have bought into that kind of scheme. Maybe keep off stocks, too.​

And you clearly dont understand context or why im ragging on tards screaming early access.

 

[Mawotb]

Isn't that precisely why almost every game in EA development has warnings plastered all over them that you should not buy it if you worry you are not getting what you expect? Sure, I would expect that there would be lawsuits all over the place already if the conditions give you any ground to file a claim. We have plenty of failed early access games, some that even reek of a deceptive trade practice lawsuit incoming. But I cannot find any real precedence for an EA game with a lawsuit out there, neither international nor in my country (Germany).

The game towns for example. This was one of Steams Greenlight releases, before early access was even a thing on Steam. It went to eternal development limbo quickly after raking in about 200.000 USD I think and the steam reviews speak for themselves. Still seems to be in a somewhat playable state apparently, maybe that's why nothing big came out of it.

There are games out there that go EA for deceptive reasons and it's those that I would consider having ground for a lawsuit, as long as it obvious something is not right with the game.

Others simply do not match up to their goals. But those never did anything to deceive you. They offered you to get access to an unfinished build of the game, usually with reduced price, just so you can support them early, but with the risk in mind that the end product might not become what you want it to be. They simply failed, but that alone would never hold ground in a court, especially if they made it clear that you accept the risk of them not finishing the product.
DayZ's short description during EA time simply stated all caps that it is unfinished and you should not buy this game unless you want support the developer early on, just to make this clear and stay on the safe side.

Not saying that you could not try to file a legal claim but I would find it hard to argue for it, at least not on grounds of breach of contract.

Bannerlords start for EA is really bumpy, not gonna argue against it. I would have expected more news on how TW is going to proceed, what transpired the last 8 years, see a roadmap, more direct info from the devs themselves, that kinda stuff. Also the buggy mess the game started in. But I do not think it is as catastrophic as people make it out to be, at least with how TW reacted to the bugs in the last few days. There are EA games out there that start with a lot less game.

again, another person failing to follow a subthread, this whole tangent was to rag on kids screaming early access and contradicting themselves on people speaking their minds. screaming EA when people voice their dissatisfaction is stupid and base. The whole reason steam has refunds is related to what ive said if i remember correctly. the point is not legal action, its that people need to shut up about EA. This forum is for people to note whats wrong. Keyboard warriors lurking on here screeching when people note the issues is just beyond words. It is compounded that the devs seem to be reacting, but not INTERRACTING with their new 'fan'base or audience. we are investors and have every right to provide feedback without tarts automatically spamming back at us about EA. Do you not get that contradiction.

 

[mangalore]

...Early access is irrelevant when there is no transparency about how insanely incomplete the game is....

Have you read the Steam page detailing the content of the Early Access release because it said bugs, instability, lack of feature, missing implementation of missions... etc. etc. I fail to see any of the issues missing that are the issues missing.

Hey, yes, this game has a long way to go to be polished and finished, but that is literally where this Early Access business scheme comes from. Most Early access games are not in an acceptable state for a public release.

Don't buy stuff if you do not like the business model they are sold under! Literally that is the point of consumer agency. That the game is unstable and missing features is literally the caveat it was sold under. So if that sounds too cagey, don't throw your money at such stuff. I threw money at it on the expectation of a couple of hours of entertainment (50 Euro is a cheap night out) and I am ok if it had been a total dud and chalked it up.

That does not mean you cannot / should not / would not (cannot / want not really stop you anyway) point out bugs, issues or feature wishes. But a lot of this posting is really a worrisome misunderstanding of what the Early Access model is and that it is a risky model where you have no legal position to demand anything beyond the release state of the game which is... well, a early access state of missing features, bugs and needing more content.

I have seen far worse EA titles which should not qualify for it so Bannerlord is safely in the necessary level.

 

[Mawotb]

Have you read the Steam page detailing the content of the Early Access release because it said bugs, instability, lack of feature, missing implementation of missions... etc. etc. I fail to see any of the issues missing that are the issues missing.

Hey, yes, this game has a long way to go to be polished and finished, but that is literally where this Early Access business scheme comes from. Most Early access games are not in an acceptable state for a public release.

Don't buy stuff if you do not like the business model they are sold under! Literally that is the point of consumer agency. That the game is unstable and missing features is literally the caveat it was sold under. So if that sounds too cagey, don't throw your money at such stuff. I threw money at it on the expectation of a couple of hours of entertainment (50 Euro is a cheap night out) and I am ok if it had been a total dud and chalked it up.

That does not mean you cannot / should not / would not (cannot / want not really stop you anyway) point out bugs, issues or feature wishes. But a lot of this posting is really a worrisome misunderstanding of what the Early Access model is and that it is a risky model where you have no legal position to demand anything beyond the release state of the game which is... well, a early access state of missing features, bugs and needing more content.

I have seen far worse EA titles which should not qualify for it so Bannerlord is safely in the necessary level.

For you to be going on this far for me to have gone on the roundabout way explaining how steam refunds came to be, whilst still misunderstanding that I did it to drag you kids into a logical pit of stupidity that EA is where people are allowed to complain and note issues for devs or others to offer constructive feedback, not kids screeching about EA. The ultimate point is pulling out of investing brings a higher risk of forcing the folding the developer. There is no roadmap or specifics, we are literally on the official forums and there is only general information provided. says stuff is missing is unspecific. It shows they have no idea where they want to be or are holding it to their chest. They are going to get flippant buyers because the advertising like all steam games is wishful and unspecific. steam pages are meant and used (abused) to generate sales, not well informed investors for game development.

 

[Twezie]

you clearly don't know your international laws or international constitutional laws. I literally operate under the full expectation of my own countries laws that what I pay for is exactly what I get.

Now the game is still incomplete and I have not seen anywhere admission of financial hardship - mind you - exactly the legal precedent to argue a refund. This is no different than investing in stocks. You failed to succeed? im going to expect to be able to pull my funds at any time knowing you made a promise and didnt deliver. This is why so many businesses fail internationally, failing to understand specific market cultures and laws.

You are delusional if you think buying an clearly stated unfinished EA game is same as investing in stocks. Pull your funds at any time if you feel like it? What is this...

And you say you operate under the full expectation that your what you pay for is what you get. And thats what you got, an unfinished EA game that is on its way to being a full release in the future. Its nobodys fault but yours that your regret the purchase, but if you went over the 2 hr limit on steam, you wont get a refund, unless you decide to pay thousands in legal fees, which you wont.

 

[Mawotb]

You are delusional if you think buying an clearly stated unfinished EA game is same as investing in stocks. Pull your funds at any time if you feel like it? What is this...

And you say you operate under the full expectation that your what you pay for is what you get. And thats what you got, an unfinished EA game that is on its way to being a full release in the future. Its nobodys fault but yours that your regret the purchase, but if you went over the 2 hr limit on steam, you wont get a refund, unless you decide to pay thousands in legal fees, which you wont.

1. you are failing to read the whole subthread - this is an argument about how the steam refunds originally came to be and how inert the tangent is when the point was stop screeching about EA. this is the place to whinge all we like about the games problems. we wanted access, we got it. they wanted play testing they got it. I bought in to be able to get my own first hand view of whats going on because no one really has a proper explanation.
2. No i paid for a game that has a place for me to produce and provide constructive criticism on the game without people *****ing about EA state. Yes things are missing, are they going to implemented, best answer is maybe. You assume with many others it will be a 'full release;. that is a complete lie and wont be proven until they say 'done'.
3. Nowhere was there any regret to the purchase, the only regret is that such tarts exist on the forum to discuss issues with the game with an overwhelming presence of screeching about EA. No ****. You cant talk about problems on a forum in an EA without saying there a problems 0 mind you just to have tarts incessantly constantly going on about god damn EA. Does no one see how two bit this is? REALLY?

 

[Twezie]

1. you are failing to read the whole subthread - this is an argument about how the steam refunds originally came to be and how inert the tangent is when the point was stop screeching about EA. this is the place to whinge all we like about the games problems. we wanted access, we got it. they wanted play testing they got it. I bought in to be able to get my own first hand view of whats going on because no one really has a proper explanation.
2. No i paid for a game that has a place for me to produce and provide constructive criticism on the game without people *****ing about EA state. Yes things are missing, are they going to implemented, best answer is maybe. You assume with many others it will be a 'full release;. that is a complete lie and wont be proven until they say 'done'.
3. Nowhere was there any regret to the purchase, the only regret is that such tarts exist on the forum to discuss issues with the game with an overwhelming presence of screeching about EA. No ****. You cant talk about problems on a forum in an EA without saying there a problems 0 mind you just to have tarts incessantly constantly going on about god damn EA. Does no one see how two bit this is? REALLY?

Okay fair enough, but my assumption on the full release is based on the fact that the original mount and blade launched exactly like this, and in time got completed and warband released. Nothing really points to the fact that they would stop working on this game IMO.

 

[Mawotb]

Okay fair enough, but my assumption on the full release is based on the fact that the original mount and blade launched exactly like this, and in time got completed and warband released. Nothing really points to the fact that they would stop working on this game IMO.

TLDR exactly. however 'complete' is always gonig to subjective person to person. Don't argue it because mods prove this through and through. people need to wise up and stop saying EA without realizing how retarded it is. Yes people are going to have knee jerk reactions, stay off it so the thread disappears, if its relevant it will stay so. will also keep the thread concise and on point.

EDIT: dont compare a game from so long ago to modern development. nothing is the same anymore. well except that developers still suck in the management department but thats everything, everyone, everywhere. It is way too easy to criticise development with hindsight, especially someone who has better footing in management and traditional / cultural / social pitfalls. failing to focus on core content is a huge issue with all developers. Blizzard is insane at artistic and graphic stuff now but sucks completely on development, but thats a whole other story.