I am against keeping the unintended weight changes even for some units

Users who are viewing this thread

when the normal height where about 165 or so back then
“According to Steckel's analysis, heights decreased from an average of 68.27 inches (173.4 centimeters) in the early Middle Ages to an average low of roughly 65.75 inches (167 cm) during the 17th and 18th centuries.”


This is skeletal data from 30! Different studies, Western Europeans in the early Middle Ages actually averaged about the same as Western Europeans nowadays.
 
Fat people were extremely rare in the Middle Ages.
The troops aren’t actually fat they’re just built big, this wouldn’t be common but it wouldn’t be rare either because we see their descendants nowadays who have similar build and muscle structures. 300+ Ib troops aren’t in this game they look like they’re 220-230 max
 
“According to Steckel's analysis, heights decreased from an average of 68.27 inches (173.4 centimeters) in the early Middle Ages to an average low of roughly 65.75 inches (167 cm) during the 17th and 18th centuries.”


This is skeletal data from 30! Different studies, Western Europeans in the early Middle Ages actually averaged about the same as Western Europeans nowadays.

thanks alot, going to read into this a bit then :grin:
 
well... i guess i agree with op, though not for the reasons stated... in some cases it just looks absurdedly. full stop. having some variety in statur in some cases would be great though
 
There were fat people in the military. There are plenty of literary sources that indicate that. And precisely because bodybuilding knowledge is modern that you have to follow specific eating and exercising routines, there were fat medieval military dudes. Intense physical activity does not automatically translate into lean bodies (how many modern people would have loved that!). One example would be Japanese professional Sumo players.
 
Beeing fat was a sign of high wealth in the middle ages, because only the rich could afford to eat enough to make them fat

Plus, in BL currently, the characters just look plain ridiculous... it's not even funny, it's just immersion breaking
 
There were fat people in the military. There are plenty of literary sources that indicate that. And precisely because bodybuilding knowledge is modern that you have to follow specific eating and exercising routines, there were fat medieval military dudes. Intense physical activity does not automatically translate into lean bodies (how many modern people would have loved that!). One example would be Japanese professional Sumo players.
Hmmm, but you also have to realize that again from the time this takes place, people weren't always meeting ends needs. So many factors like a failed harvest, not to mention the lack of transportation meant soldiers had to walk literally hundreds of miles from point A to point B, which would burn calories a lot more than is depicted in BL.
 
Hunting and training was the prerogative of rich knights, mostly high-ranking nobles like dukes or counts, but most of knights was something like the "middle class". Henry VIII was a king, and even he was something akin to exception. Btw I'm okay with some nobles being overweight.

"Middle class" as a concept is foreign to the Middle Ages, and even if you meant "regular knights were not as wealthy as the rich dukes and kings", sure, but still, owning a lordship came with some serious luxuries and perks.

Anyway, we agree on the essential of the matter.
 
Meat is not the only source of protein. There are entirely Vegan and Vegetarian body builders.

Broccoli stalks are rich in protein, Potatoes, Beans, Lentils, Mushrooms, Hemp and Chia seeds, Almonds, Peanuts, Chickpeas.

They've also toned it back, so that the ELITE units have it. You don't think that the Elite units would eat much better than the regular rabble? At the very least their wages would allow them to buy better food if the Lords didn't take care of them. I imagine that a King would take care of his elite retinues of units. So that they in turn take care of him.

You don't need to be a body-builder working out all day to look ripped and bulky. To look pristine for competition, yeah, to look big and intimidating? No.
Most of those are not good sources of protein, you'd have to eat like 15 cups of broccoli to get even 30-40 grams of protein. Having a lot of protein per calorie doesn't mean much if the food is almost 0 calories. Vegan bodybuilders are able to exist by consuming tubs of vegan protein powder lol.
 
Warriors and upper class often had access to good food with lots of protein, add training and you'll get athletic bodies, maybe not mister Olympia level, but still pretty muscular. For example here's a reproduction of a Stirling knight:
0JYwmk5.png
 
Large guard units existed, the roman praetorians was exceptional well fed, but even those wasn't fat.

The only execption was gladiators in the roman period, but thats a very specialized thing.

Its fine to have some units taller, but seeing this rolling masses of fat coming at you is unintentionally comical.

I am sure this will get fixed with time though.
Some mods already show what great options for character modelling the game can offer, it just needs further adjustment.

(And will then hopefully be fully implemented in the character creation at full release.)

Vegan bodybuilders are able to exist by consuming tubs of vegan protein powder lol.

Keep your bull**** schoolyard-wikipedia knownledge for yourself when you got no clue of what you're talking about.
 
Beeing fat was a sign of high wealth in the middle ages, because only the rich could afford to eat enough to make them fat

Plus, in BL currently, the characters just look plain ridiculous... it's not even funny, it's just immersion breaking

Yep. They needed to leave this alone.
 
There were fat people in the military.

Some officers - yes, but frontline fighters - no, no SO fat as we can see right now in game.

Intense physical activity does not automatically translate into lean bodies (how many modern people would have loved that!). One example would be Japanese professional Sumo players.

Very bad example - a typical sumo wrestler eats a daily diet of ~20,000 calories, while the normal human eats around 2500-3500 calories

Beeing fat was a sign of high wealth in the middle ages, because only the rich could afford to eat enough to make them fat

Plus, in BL currently, the characters just look plain ridiculous... it's not even funny, it's just immersion breaking

Exactly this!

if you meant "regular knights were not as wealthy as the rich dukes and kings", sure, but still, owning a lordship came with some serious luxuries and perks.

Anyway, we agree on the essential of the matter.

Unfortunately, majority of the knight didn't owned a land or owned a small piece of land and maybe 2-3 peasants. It's enough to eat well, but not enough to overeat.

Yeah, I am not against bulkier soldiers, I just want it to be realistic, without Obelix/Peter Griffin/Arnold -like bodies.

For example here's a reproduction of a Stirling knight:
0JYwmk5.png

Perfectly fine body for upper-class soldiers, but my point is that right now in-game we see much much bulkier/fatter/muscular bodies.

For exapmle, on this page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_boxing - you can see the statue of the ancient Greek boxer - very nice healthy strong body, but not a body of Gregor Clegane or Schwarzenegger
 
but not a body of Gregor Clegane or Schwarzenegger

Those bodies wasn't possible anyway.
In long gone times train natural was not a choice, it was a little difficult to come by roids.

Schwarzenegger is a nice example.
As MR Olympia, full on hours of training each day and roids


And a little later at Conan the Barbarian, with 12% body fat and clean.


The ladder is the best a human being without modern chemical substances or growth hormons can hope for.
 
4fa1639eb1cf326a2e1b4021717fdfbc.jpg

I'm coming at you.

Dubious example, since it's a statue of Heracles (and probably a Roman copy of the original Greek bronze; like most Greek sculpture, we don't really have the originals, only Roman copies). Maybe idealised, probably stylised, and representing a demigod.

I mean, according to the sculptor of the Laocoont, this is what children look like:

wikipedia-Marie-Lan-Nguyen-845x321.jpg


Sure, they are anatomically perfect on their own, but no little child looks like a ripped 25 year old who's just one third of his father's height. And you can see from their size relative to their father that these are supposed to be young kids. I mean, Laocoont's lower leg is as big as his youngest son's full leg...

At some point you've got to interpret the sources, in this case, the art, and ask yourself if what we're seeing is not an idealisation. Or worse, a topos. Just like women's breasts were drawn in the same way in the Middle Ages in most illustrations, and faces were almost always emotionless, maybe that Hercules is an extreme rendition of what the sculptor thinks a strong man looks like. He has bulked up all the muscles he knows to make his point more evident: Hercules was a strong man.

Not saying you're wrong about there having been naturally big and strong men, just that piece of art you used as an example is not the one deserving of a "come at me" comment.

By the way, that Laocoont? He's a strong 60-something. I'll have what he's having.

Unfortunately, majority of the knight didn't owned a land or owned a small piece of land and maybe 2-3 peasants. It's enough to eat well, but not enough to overeat.

A small piece of land with 2-3 peasants is not a knightly estate capable of paying for the war necessity of a knight. We can't know the absolute numbers, but if you count the amount of people present in Medieval coronations and big events where someone was counting, compare it with the number of "knights" reliable battle chronicles of the same era suggest, and you follow what the descriptions of the time say about knightly war harnesses (armour and several horses, plus squire, servant and other people from his household), you get that a sizeable amount of knights could pay for their own armour and war apparatus. The product from several acres of land worked by 2-3 households of peasants, if not more (not 2-3 peasants, they come in family units, not individuals) was necessary to pay for it. I think it's safe to say that a majority of the knights during the 12-13th Centuries were wealthy enough.

We're talking 12th and 13th Centuries. I can't remember if it was Maurice Keen or Georges Duby who did the study.

Later on, knights did become considerably impoverished, and by 1500 you get your penniless Quijotes. But by 1200, they exist, but they're not the norm. Of course, poor knights (fourth and fifth sons of not-so-rich knights, mostly) had many ways to regain their earthly status. Marry rich, go to the Holy Land, get a position as retainer for a very wealthy peer of the realm (maybe even the King), or become a tournament superstar (Duby has a very good book on the subject about William Marshal).
 
Last edited:
Actually people, particularly men on average were much more muscular 1000 years ago than they are today. It was common for men to work at physical labor up to 12 hours a day and eat an almost entirely meat based diet. Also, testosterone levels were substantially higher and life expectancy was much shorter. Most people lived "short and brutal" lives with few intellectual pursuits.
 
I'm coming at you.

Dubious example, since it's a statue of Heracles (and probably a Roman copy of the original Greek bronze; like most Greek sculpture, we don't really have the originals, only Roman copies). Maybe idealised, probably stylised, and representing a demigod.

I mean, according to the sculptor of the Laocoont, this is what children look like:

wikipedia-Marie-Lan-Nguyen-845x321.jpg


Sure, they are anatomically perfect on their own, but no little child looks like a ripped 25 year old who's just one third of his father's height. And you can see from their size relative to their father that these are supposed to be young kids. I mean, Laocoont's lower leg is as big as his youngest son's full leg...

At some point you've got to interpret the sources, in this case, the art, and ask yourself if what we're seeing is not an idealisation. Or worse, a topos. Just like women's breasts were drawn in the same way in the Middle Ages in most illustrations, and faces were almost always emotionless, maybe that Hercules is an extreme rendition of what the sculptor thinks a strong man looks like. He has bulked up all the muscles he knows to make his point more evident: Hercules was a strong man.

Not saying you're wrong about there having been naturally big and strong men, just that piece of art you used as an example is not the one deserving of a "come at me" comment.

By the way, that Laocoont? He's a strong 60-something. I'll have what he's having.
Saying that it's an idealization is a long shot imo. He depicted a strongman with a remarkable accuracy, I highly doubt that he did that without using a live example. Besides, it's not such an unattainable physique, that is how you wil look like from many years of working with heavy weights, which greeks actually practiced and even employed periodization techniques not too dissimilar to what modern sports science recommends.
 
Saying that it's an idealization is a long shot imo. He depicted a strongman with a remarkable accuracy, I highly doubt that he did that without using a live example. Besides, it's not such an unattainable physique, that is how you wil look like from many years of working with heavy weights, which greeks actually practiced and even employed periodization techniques not too dissimilar to what modern sports science recommends.

Again, not saying you're wrong, but I wouldn't use the example of a statue of Hercules to defend that a noticeable amount of people were Schwarzenegger-like in the Middle Ages. You could explain the accuracy just by making the muscles bulkier, or he could have had a model. That model could have been a one-time wonderful strongman, coveted by all artists wanting to represent Hercules. So far it's just one image, not enough to establish a general rule of any kind.

I'd use Medieval imagery, but most of it is stylized, idealised and generally not observational but reproductive, so it's not a great source for body shape either.

For the record, I'll say that I haven't read much descriptions of fat men in any Medieval book, description or text of any kind. There probably are, but I haven't come across any. Francesch Eiximenis talks about a priest whose diet is all honey and butter and meat and fried, sugary meals, implying he's fat and a glutton, but he never actually describes him.

I'm down for a very, very small amount of high-tier soldiers being Schwartzenegger-like, and I wouldn't mind having some fat notables, and even lords (especially the Imperial lords; the Byzantine aristocrats didn't have the same lifestyle and warring compulsion as the Feudal nobility).
 
defend that a noticeable amount of people were Schwarzenegger-like in the Middle Ages.
Well I'm not trying to defend that, I don't think there's any kind of data on the average medieval physique, at least I haven't seen one. Just saying that muscular physiques weren't impossible. In fact I'd even say that I mostly agree with you but use an opportunity to sperg out anyways.

I'd use Medieval imagery, but most of it is stylized, idealised and generally not observational but reproductive, so it's not a great source for body shape either.
You could use armours, they reproduce the original body proportions quite well. We could definitely say that a lot of knights had a narrow waist and wide shoulders, however it doesn't exactly tell us how muscular they were. But they were definitely often very fit.
gPuDtFu.jpg

a2UqXRy.jpg

DvwTOh4.jpg


TSUy9hN.jpg
RVrlt4y.jpg

Otm9rYl.jpg
8nOF1wd.jpg

d1cQvfc.jpg

tQWkgbo.jpg

2fWwB0I.jpg
xOE44UE.jpg
 
Back
Top Bottom