Feedback/observations for v3.9

[Sarin]

I'm finding the mid game a bit boring at the moment, basically because I am sitting around waiting for things.  I think that the CKO training and order blacksmith upgrades are taking too long.  Yes I could skip these, but I like to minmax so this is something that I will tweak myself when I can.

Don't you have backups? Go hunt unique spawns or just armies, win tourneys, hunt Noldor if you don't have Elacrai open yet....

 

[grimm4]

I'm finding the mid game a bit boring at the moment, basically because I am sitting around waiting for things.  I think that the CKO training and order blacksmith upgrades are taking too long.  Yes I could skip these, but I like to minmax so this is something that I will tweak myself when I can.

Don't you have backups? Go hunt unique spawns or just armies, win tourneys, hunt Noldor if you don't have Elacrai open yet....

I'v done all that stuff so many times... I'm on day 1400 or so. Like I said, I like to minmax... I will tweak the times for this stuff eventually.  I am just providing feedback, so it's up to the devs to decide whether they want to act upon it or not. 

From experience, they don't seem to like to deviate from their own vision at all based upon feedback so I fully expect this feedback to be put down and ignored and I will just tweak their mod as I see fit.

 

[The Black Brigand]

Very impressed all the new features so far, especially the secret noldor quest.

Looking forward to more pleasant surprises in the next version 

 

[Egaldor]

Pretty sure they said 3.9 would be the last version (besides any patch or bugfix to this version)

 

[taro11]

Very impressed all the new features so far, especially the secret noldor quest.

Looking forward to more pleasant surprises in the next version 

What is the secret noldor quest? Did I miss something?

 

[lconracl]

... order blacksmith upgrades are taking too long. ...

Give Alexios some money and he will work faster.

 

[grimm4]

... order blacksmith upgrades are taking too long. ...

Give Alexios some money and he will work faster.

I am aware of that, it's still not fast enough for me.

 

[RumbleBee]

What's everyone's experience with AI on AI steamrolls because they are very common for me. 3/3 of my concurrent long running play-throughs have had atleast one faction decisively defeat another, taking several centers with no sign of slowing down within the first hundred days or so without much/any player intervention.

I'd wager this is the result of the issue where poor lords get banished to the shadowrealm a friendly city and essentially stop existing in combnation with the new full auto-garrisons meaning that successful attackers rarely lose much momentum.

But maybe it's just a fluke. AI snowballing wasn't unknown pre 3.9 either.

 

[taro11]

What's everyone's experience with AI on AI steamrolls because they are very common for me. 3/3 of my concurrent long running play-throughs have had atleast one faction decisively defeat another, taking several centers with no sign of slowing down within the first hundred days or so without much/any player intervention.

I'd wager this is the result of the issue where poor lords get banished to the shadowrealm a friendly city and essentially stop existing in combnation with the new full auto-garrisons meaning that successful attackers rarely lose much momentum.

But maybe it's just a fluke. AI snowballing wasn't unknown pre 3.9 either.

I think it's just about the number of lords the factions have. In Pop options there is an option to disable auto defections. Maybe it will help.

 

[RumbleBee]

[paraphrase] Snowballs are bad, M'kay

I think it's just about the number of lords the factions have. In Pop options there is an option to disable auto defections. Maybe it will help.

Defections were never a factor in my cases, just one side getting beat in the initial engagement and then never putting up much of a fight after.

 

[Theo H]

What's everyone's experience with AI on AI steamrolls because they are very common for me. 3/3 of my concurrent long running play-throughs have had atleast one faction decisively defeat another, taking several centers with no sign of slowing down within the first hundred days or so without much/any player intervention.

I'd wager this is the result of the issue where poor lords get banished to the shadowrealm a friendly city and essentially stop existing in combnation with the new full auto-garrisons meaning that successful attackers rarely lose much momentum.

But maybe it's just a fluke. AI snowballing wasn't unknown pre 3.9 either.

Attacking armies take minimal damage attacking cities/castles unless the player joins the defense (or in some cases attack) personally or a bunch of lords are sitting in the garrison at the time of attack....been this way for ages.
Completely different from native or other mods where attacking armies can sometime take quite a dent or in some mods get completely annihilated...tbh I wish garrisons would have a bit more autocalc punch.

 

[Thrannduil]

What's everyone's experience with AI on AI steamrolls because they are very common for me. 3/3 of my concurrent long running play-throughs have had atleast one faction decisively defeat another, taking several centers with no sign of slowing down within the first hundred days or so without much/any player intervention.

I'd wager this is the result of the issue where poor lords get banished to the shadowrealm a friendly city and essentially stop existing in combnation with the new full auto-garrisons meaning that successful attackers rarely lose much momentum.

But maybe it's just a fluke. AI snowballing wasn't unknown pre 3.9 either.

Attacking armies take minimal damage attacking cities/castles unless the player joins the defense (or in some cases attack) personally or a bunch of lords are sitting in the garrison at the time of attack....been this way for ages.
Completely different from native or other mods where attacking armies can sometime take quite a dent or in some mods get completely annihilated...tbh I wish garrisons would have a bit more autocalc punch.

Fierds are conquering everything, and nobody can stop them. They own several Sarleon castles, a ravenstern castle, half the D'shar territory, and they dived deep to take Marleons.

I really hate the new AI cheat for the instant full garrisons, as my lords are hurt by it and need my entire army to protect their castles until they finish garrisoning it, while the AI just waltzes in, take a castle, leaves, and I have to deal with something equivalent to one of their original castles. Then it helps the AI steamroll even more, as castles rarely change hands back and forth anymore.

I think the reason for the easy autocalc wins is the absolutely massive marshalled armies in this mod, where they regularly go over 1200 men for a mere half of a country, lategame when factions swell with defeated kingdom lords they can easily reach over 2000+, while garrisons are usually 500-700 at the very most. I think the defenders should get a slight autocalc boost like the Noldor, just not as huge. Maybe it already works this way, but it doesn't seem to help much. If it's tweaked, the instant full garrisons needs to go or be severely reduced, as it's just another straight-up cheat for the AI that just adds more tedium and annoyance to the player, punishing the player for losing a castle, but not punishing the AI for doing the same.

 

[Theo H]

What's everyone's experience with AI on AI steamrolls because they are very common for me. 3/3 of my concurrent long running play-throughs have had atleast one faction decisively defeat another, taking several centers with no sign of slowing down within the first hundred days or so without much/any player intervention.

I'd wager this is the result of the issue where poor lords get banished to the shadowrealm a friendly city and essentially stop existing in combnation with the new full auto-garrisons meaning that successful attackers rarely lose much momentum.

But maybe it's just a fluke. AI snowballing wasn't unknown pre 3.9 either.

Attacking armies take minimal damage attacking cities/castles unless the player joins the defense (or in some cases attack) personally or a bunch of lords are sitting in the garrison at the time of attack....been this way for ages.
Completely different from native or other mods where attacking armies can sometime take quite a dent or in some mods get completely annihilated...tbh I wish garrisons would have a bit more autocalc punch.

Fierds are conquering everything, and nobody can stop them. They own several Sarleon castles, a ravenstern castle, half the D'shar territory, and they dived deep to take Marleons.

I really hate the new AI cheat for the instant full garrisons, as my lords are hurt by it and need my entire army to protect their castles until they finish garrisoning it, while the AI just waltzes in, take a castle, leaves, and I have to deal with something equivalent to one of their original castles. Then it helps the AI steamroll even more, as castles rarely change hands back and forth anymore.

I think the reason for the easy autocalc wins is the absolutely massive marshalled armies in this mod, where they regularly go over 1200 men for a mere half of a country, lategame when factions swell with defeated kingdom lords they can easily reach over 2000+, while garrisons are usually 500-700 at the very most. I think the defenders should get a slight autocalc boost like the Noldor, just not as huge. Maybe it already works this way, but it doesn't seem to help much. If it's tweaked, the instant full garrisons needs to go or be severely reduced, as it's just another straight-up cheat for the AI that just adds more tedium and annoyance to the player, punishing the player for losing a castle, but not punishing the AI for doing the same.

A player with a strong party can hold off all the kingdoms at once before the "instant garrison cheat" change....it was so broken before...just take everything back instantly after the marshal takes a fief.
Heck you didn't need any lords with you to do it.

 

[bobknight]

Yep.

Orcs steamroll people. They did before this patch and they continue to do so after the patch. I do not think the garrison update made a difference. 

I'm also not terribly concerned about it either. It provides a natural mid-game role for the player as a balancing force if one wish to play as a mercenary captain. Alternatively, it provides ample opportunity for the player-turned-vassal to gain fifes by helping either side.

 

[Brujoloco]

Yep.

Orcs steamroll people. They did before this patch and they continue to do so after the patch. I do not think the garrison update made a difference. 

I'm also not terribly concerned about it either. It provides a natural mid-game role for the player as a balancing force if one wish to play as a mercenary captain. Alternatively, it provides ample opportunity for the player-turned-vassal to gain fifes by helping either side.

The Reason the Fierds and Empire troops steamroll over sarleon/dshar so frequently is the insane HP buff their troops have over other factions.

See, the AI just pre calculates their RAW hps vs the RAW hps of other troops, which prompts it to become aggressive and attack hostiles and the autocalc battles tend to favor them slightly in the long run, and in this the Fierds and Empire troops are the best.

This was proven several years ago on the Lordless Playthrough one player did to show auto calc battles with fierd/empire troops was much better than actual fighting.

This information has never been thought of when designing new troops trees or upgrading versions to make all factions more or less equal AI wise.

You can mention flavor for when the playe fight with or against certain factions, but the Dshar/Sarleon troops fare badly in autocalcs as they are more balanced for actual map combat, but this hurts them ai wise on the overall world map

 

[bobknight]

Interesting, I never experience the empire steamroll even though I almost always help them when they get into trouble.

 

[lconracl]

The Reason the Fierds and Empire troops steamroll over sarleon/dshar so frequently is the insane HP buff their troops have over other factions ...

At the end of "the world map balancing activity" I have started and observed 33 games, each from the separate start. Each kingdom had a chance to dominate the world map with variation <9% from the average.

... See, the AI just pre calculates their RAW hps vs the RAW hps of other troops, which prompts it to become aggressive and attack hostiles and the autocalc battles tend to favor them slightly in the long run, and in this the Fierds and Empire troops are the best.

HP is not considered at all during pre-calculating autocalc values. At all.

This was proven several years ago on the Lordless Playthrough one player did to show auto calc battles with fierd/empire troops was much better than actual fighting.

It only depends which units player takes and what kind of battle it is, e.g. cavalry has double offensive strength in the open field battles so medium cavalry (like Sarleon Cavalry) can match heavy infantry (like Huscarls)  there, while during the siege it won't be that easy.

This information has never been thought of when designing new troops trees or upgrading versions to make all factions more or less equal AI wise.

You can mention flavor for when the playe fight with or against certain factions, but the Dshar/Sarleon troops fare badly in autocalcs as they are more balanced for actual map combat, but this hurts them ai wise on the overall world map.

I am not sure about pre 3.7 versions, but since 3.7 autocalc values were taken into consideration during troops creation. In 3.9 "autocalc values" and "real battle performance" and "level (upkeep)" of each unit match as close as possible (e.g. no situation in which autocalc is high, but level is low).

Overall I don't know where do you have your informations from, but they are not very accurate (at least in case of 3.9).

 

[Brujoloco]

Overall I don't know where do you have your informations from, but they are not very accurate (at least in case of 3.9).

Mostly was referencing the very old Lothario playthrough:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,259365.msg6222369.html#msg6222369

But yes, I believe I need more time with PoP 3.9 to voice a better opinion, but so far it looks good, I still believe Fierdsvain performs better in Autocalc, mostly due to Autocalc ignoring terrain alongside raw hps of overall troops, whereas Dshar for me, still underperforms in that area, which has been a pet peeve of mine for a while.

Though what I wrote before was a very ample and gross generalization, I still feel a slight deviation on autocalc battles favors certain kingdoms over others, regardless of the way they pile up in super stacks or how their marshall perform and its aggresiveness rating.

That is another factor, alongside Kingdom location (old paradigms where shattered with the dispersal of the Dshar further down in the desert and repositioning of Fierdsvain fully along coast and Ravenstern slight repositioning) but since we are voicing some opinions here, I still see the Dshar for example, being an Underdog overall.

The Only plus I have seen so far for them is the distance of some of their castles make it less appealing for some pilestacks of doom of the AI to calculate reaching them and protect their territories at the same time, but this is from more recent versions and not just 3.9.

But I really enjoy the new changes, specially since I have been here for well , over 7 years playing this wonderful mod 

I nonetheless always end up changing some troops, I usually nerf the Fierds and Empire out of the blue, which always makes my game more interesting, since I end up playing mercenary for a long time.

Cheers!

 

[Lucan]

I dont think Fierdsvain Perform better in autocalc, In my game the dshar singehandly cut down Fierds to only 2 major cities... everything else is gone. They allone pretty much controll 50% of the map, and i have a load to do, to try and keep fierds alive.

Im just abbout to change faction and end their missery ^^

So as far as i see, games can go in either direction, its just a lot of RNG who gets Marshall and how well he performs.

 

[Apstinentas]

Does anyone else feel that rewards for regular arena fights are a bit too large?